Tournament 3 2009 Balance of power winner ruthlessferengi

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mickar
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Post by mickar » Sat Jun 06, 2009 9:45 pm

what i resented about vanilla is that you have only one shot at the survival
Well, think about it. If the Klingon empire destroyed all the Federation's ships in 'real' life, star trek life I mean, what chance would the Federation have?

When the lion eats the zebra the zebra is dead, no?

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Post by Pigman » Sat Jun 06, 2009 9:55 pm

Hi ruthlessferengi

If I could understand half of what your saying, I think I agree with all of it. Especially the fact that one mistake/lose large battle in Vanilla and you're just about done.

How anyone can say this mod doesn't require skill, I don't know. The game is more balanced as evidenced by all empires claiming wins in this tourney. In most Tourneys some empires never get picked and if they do they lose!

You obviously need to understand the very different stats in this mod to get best of it and after only 2 games I still have much to learn.

I hope you're not going to teach me ruthlessferengi. If you do, don't make it hurt too bad, please!

Regards

Pigman

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Post by mickar » Sat Jun 06, 2009 10:39 pm

How anyone can say this mod doesn't require skill, I don't know.
I'm not sure who said that. I know I've said it doesn't take any skill to make ships. Everyone, regardless of skill set, can produce 6 ships per turn assuming you have the dill.

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Post by Pigman » Sat Jun 06, 2009 10:56 pm

Hi mickar

I don't want to be contentious, but it doesn't take skill to build ships in any mod, you just place your order and out they pop.

mickar said
I'm not sure who said that. I know I've said it doesn't take any skill to make ships. Everyone, regardless of skill set, can produce 6 ships per turn assuming you have the dill.
Maybe you can build more and faster with the ready made systems, but you build ships that are too costly to run and you run into the red, as is evidenced by the reports from many of the BoP games so far.

So you have to find ways to increase your ship/population support and it's more difficult to subjugate due to orbitals and TTs cost more to run.

Anyway, you can build fast and so can your opponent. In Vanilla (and it's happened to me) you get 2 extra systems and they're both 140 pop, your opponent gets 2 extra systems at 300 pop. This happens and your pretty well dead, unless he's only an average player and you play out of your skin!

So what this mod does is give each player a more or less even start, which is not the case with other mods. Then it's down to the skill of the player and not so much luck as to who wins.

Just my thoughts.

Regards

Pigman

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Post by ruthlessferengi » Sat Jun 06, 2009 11:44 pm

mickar wrote:
what i resented about vanilla is that you have only one shot at the survival
Well, think about it. If the Klingon empire destroyed all the Federation's ships in 'real' life, star trek life I mean, what chance would the Federation have?

When the lion eats the zebra the zebra is dead, no?
good, and valid point:) together with Nighthawk, this makes for two great players from BC:) regards to fellow Canadian!

nevertheless, i'd be hesitant to inject too much realism in this game:) when the klingon warbird uncloaks in northern wisconsin, i'll be prepaired to eat this digital manuscript though:) as far as this mod is concerned,, this mod picks up where vanilla left off:

suppose you get to chose ANY race you want, and get to have an infinite number of ships (30 last edition capital ships and 40 strikers that can travel fast - at turn 65 - that's like imposibility for vanilla) - and you get to replenish this fast .... what would do with all that hardware? and all of a sudden, just before being digested, zebra knocks out a lion... in this mod, zebras got fangs:) unrealistic? well, it's just another version of a game. operative word being - game..

however, i enjoy reading Flocks account of his journeys that invariably go like...

"well i got this really shitty systems, and all is not good, but i won anyway! - that takes skill:) can't argue with that...

Hey, Pigman, i don't have any lessons to teach ya! just out to have a good game, that's all... see you soon, chose your race wisely :)
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Post by mickar » Sun Jun 07, 2009 12:42 am

I don't want to be contentious, but it doesn't take skill to build ships in any mod, you just place your order and out they pop.
You are right and that's my main criticism of all these mods. IMHO, the good builder should be rewarded by having built more ships than the not so good builder.
So what this mod does is give each player a more or less even start, which is not the case with other mods. Then it's down to the skill of the player and not so much luck as to who wins.
I'll agree that this mod places the emphasis on tactics and away from shipbuilding. And it does take skill to win.

I guess if the object of the mod was to make it a strategic/tactical game the creators accomplished this. But if I wanted to play a strategy game I'd play Risk.

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Post by mickar » Sun Jun 07, 2009 4:56 am

Ok, crazygoopdog and i finished our game. I won.

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Post by Pigman » Sun Jun 07, 2009 9:01 am

mickar

First of all, well done getting to semis.

Just a few thoughts on what you said.
I'll agree that this mod places the emphasis on tactics and away from shipbuilding. And it does take skill to win.

I guess if the object of the mod was to make it a strategic/tactical game the creators accomplished this. But if I wanted to play a strategy game I'd play Risk.
One object that Gowron had was to make the game more balanced (that's not to say it's completely balanced). By and large he seems to have achieved this objective and for tourament play that is a very desirable thing from my perspective.

Probably a secondary object to make ship battles both bigger and longer, by reduced damage and quick shipbuilding. Again this has been achieved.

However, strategic options have changed drastically from Vanilla. i.e. Raiding used to be a valid option if you needed money to support a large fleet and was particularly good for cloaked empires with experienced raiding ships.

Now, it might have been too easy to get money this way in Vanilla, but now it's not worth building ships with raiding in mind, as the amount gained in a raid, even with legendary ships sat over AI's home system so that you're raiding maybe 6 big systems simultaneously, is so low that it doesn't cover the ship support cost for those ships.

So, if you can't get money to support your fleet from raiding, what about getting the population up?

Problem here is that colonizing is so slow that it may not even be worth building colony ships, but look to subjugate instead. Again, not easy as planetary assault has generally become more difficult in this mod and you have to be very careful how you do it.

OK, what about scrapping ships to get money? No way, you only get 15% of ship build cost back, so it is no longer a valid tactic to have maybe 3 or 4 systems building and just scrapping ships on one of those systems to keep you in the black on a big minus credits per turn situation.

This seems to leave diplomacy as the route to get money, either through trading, or through making demands of the AI. Sometimes this seems much easier in this mod, but I don't get consistant results.

I can see that Gowron wants us to think about our strategy and decision making and we haven't gone all the way to your "RISK" analogy, but I can completely see where you're coming from.

I like this mod (mainly for the balance), but not without reservation. I believe that a halfway house on raiding, scrapping, colonizing and even planetary assault would be desirable.

Also, is it really neccessary to be surrounded at T5 with 5 large developed systems, all with 3 class M planets? I'm sure that a bit of variety in this area would be easy to achieve, but still allow balance, just to make the game more interesting. After all, you know exactly what you're going to get in BoP and having some surprise in starting systems would be nice.

Gowron, please don't take these comments as negatives, they're just personal observations/preferences and I believe that this is so far the best mod for tournament play in any case.

Regards

Pigman

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Post by thunderchero » Sun Jun 07, 2009 9:46 am

Congrats to all semi final players good luck with your matches.

Mickar vs branybeans with mickar getting first choice.

pigman vs ruthlessferengi with pigman getting first choice.

semi final completion date is sunday june 14 if extention is needed just ask.

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Post by Pigman » Sun Jun 07, 2009 10:03 am

thunderchero said
Congrats to all semi final players good luck with your matches.
Thanks, will definitely need plenty of luck against RF, especially as players with first choice in quarter-finals all lost!

Did anyone else notice that?

TZ difference (7 hours I think) between me and RF may make it difficult to find mutually agreeable times to finish by next Sunday, but I'm sure we'll start before then.

So extension most likely needed.

Regards

Pigman

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Post by mickar » Sun Jun 07, 2009 2:33 pm

Ok, last night I was tired so I'll go into some detail about my game with crazygoopdog which, btw, was a very hard fought victory. crazygoopdog was a worthy opponent.

First, try as we might we just couldn't finish our battle. All told, we must have reloaded 15 times and we also delayed 1 turn on 3 seperate occasions thinking it would enable us to finish. So, we both agreed to start a new game. crazygoopdog again took rom and, upon mutual agreement, I took ferg.

As in our first game, we were very close. I saw rom ship turn 2. I was abit lucky starting with 3 dill while dog only had 1. Tama was 1 square from me and a dill system 2 square to colonize so I had all the dill I needed. My strategy was to quickly get my dill, mass produce ships and prevent dog from getting enough dill.

Basically, that is how the game played out. I quickly got my dill, was producing 6 ships per turn and moved down to take/prevent dog any dill. Eventually he colonized 3 dill systems and conquered yridia all within 1 or 2 square from his space. As the game progressed, I took all his dill and even tried to take romulus, which failed but did damage. dog really didn't have much choice but to fight at that point. The battle, at romulus, was 24 wb 4 tactical vs 11 mauraders, 25 upgraded strike and 20 something raiders. After cloak turn I was able to ram most of his wb.

crazygoopdog put up a good fight considering his lack of dill the whole game. His intel attack was very strong and did lots of damage. At the end of the game my credits had been in the red for 3 or 4 turn, I couldn't see rom as his intel had killed my scanners so I welcomed the battle which occurred around turn 35.

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Post by mickar » Sun Jun 07, 2009 8:04 pm

Ok, Brandybeans and I played our semi-final game. I took ferg and he took fed. I started lower left and fed mid right, though I found this out later.

I was abit disappointed with having only 1 dill to start so I was in no rush to meet fed, I first saw his escort turn 4 or 5 so just avoided that area of space. Ktaria was 3 square from me, selay 4 square, a dill system 4 square and trill 5 square. None of those, except ktaria was in fed direction so I wasnt worried about dill. I just set to the task of getting my dill and making as many strike as possible as soon as possible.

After getting dill I sat abit and made strike and raider, then went to zero in on fed position. I located him and started the long journey to vulcan which was 2 square from fed and 3 square from ktaria. I upgraded my strike on the way to vulcan so switched to mauraders. I took vulcan and next turn jumped to fed system with strike and raider. The next turn fed defended and we had our battle. 12 fed dreads 4 escorts vs 27 strike, 2 mauraders, 41 raiders and 5 tt. I won the battle and next turn took fed system.

Fed conceded next turn. Game was 31 turns.

Thanks to Brandybean for a well played game.

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Post by ruthlessferengi » Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:02 pm

Pigman and I played. He chose Ferengi (agrh...), i reluctantly went with Cardies... - new race for me as I never played it in BOP before...

so, i was at top left, ferengi immediatly below and to the left (ouch) and feds to center - my closest AI.

Pigman, in the spirit of the great Sir Francis Drake (a native of Devon, incidentally), build a ton of raiders and a few maurauds - and went off immediately taking over 3 minors between us - two of which had dil... I lost two smaller battles to his maurads and raiders and got pushed into my own territory as he build two starbases next door to me over vulcan and talar while trippling his fleet...

my only gasp of hope was that he did not build any strikers... still 20 maurad and 50 raiders looked bad enough to make me turn defensive... turned up intel (got may be 5000, blew up one raider, nothing much - teflon guy he is... ), extorted money from roms, and build like mad on my two dils...

I got 40 battleships II while researching for type III, was about 20 turns away... then decided to attack his starbases, killed one on vulcan then got my tts to get it.. he shows up with his fleet... we had a battle and i managed to win.

That gave me a breather to complete my research, and get some population base with feds...

somehow, Sir Pigman lost his cool and decided to concede - but i dare say he still had a good chance to rebound as he pushed me around for good 40 turns and certainly got me beat up into humility before that fateful battle...

well played, i am thankful he did not build strikers...:))
Last edited by ruthlessferengi on Mon Jun 15, 2009 2:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Pigman » Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:37 pm

Well played RF

Was ambitious of me to take Fergs against the Grand Nagus himself. Cards were an excellent oppostion and meeting early meant I knew I was in for an intel onslaught, but also had to keep pace with shipbuilding and research.

Difficult balance in the end. While all looked well and I won a few battles, some fairly big as I took out 16 BSs, 3 SCs and a Dest for the loss of only 8 Marauders on turn 20, RF was building much quicker than I anticipated.

Suspect he was using the so called "phantom dilithium" ruse as he only had 2 or 3 Dil systems. On turn 29 I turned up at Cardassia with 45 Raiders, only to find nearly 30 BSs after destroying 16 of them only 9 turns earlier.

Cardie ship support must be good as I was running tight on money. I had 5000 intel, rising to 6500 by the end and intel attacks were relatively low level, but they cost me research, stolen money and affected diplomacy to the point where I couldn't get money from AI.

I probably should have spied out Kling and Rom systems to trade with them and also should have built SCs, but their run cost is high and I forgot reason not to use against cloaked empire didn't apply against Cards.

Towards the end around turn 38, RF turned up with his fleet and I either had to engage them or let him take Vulcan and then my other 3 Minors all clumped together.

21 Marauders, 58 Raiders, 2 Strike Cruisers and a couple of TTs, just wasn't enough against 41 Cardie BSs using ram tactics and after all my ships were smashed to atoms, he still had 28 BSs.

My fleet was now reduced to about 10 raiders elsewhere, but I thought, OK, let's rebuild first with stacks of raiders as I could get 5 per turn. Was 6 per turn B4 RF took Vulcan.

A couple of turns later I set my raiders to intercept, to try to rid myself of an annoying Cardie raider on my doorstep and although it was successful the game crashed.

On restart my systems had returned to trade goods and no ships had been produced, losing me 5 Raiders.

I was disheartened by this point already, after being well ahead on retire screen for most of game, and conceded, this being last straw.

In fairness to RF, he offerred me lots of options to stay in the game, including peace, but after losing my Minors and the 2 Dil that they had, the morale dip, the fact I couldn't keep pace in all areas of ship production, research and intel, I knew the game was up.

I know I made one or two errors, but this doesn't take away from the near perfect way that RF played the Cards and I say good luck to RF in the final, but if you play Cards against mickar with Fergs the way you played me, it will be mickar that needs the luck.

Either way, I understand the first BoP tournament will be a Canadian win.

I have to say it's been a pleasure to play this tournament and to feel I had a chance in all 3 games with different empires and the fact that these were my first ever BoP games gives me hope for improvement on next BoP tournament, so ruthlessferengi/mickar, I'll be gunning for you.

Thanks Gowron, not without some reservations as posted earlier, for providing a MP mod that is genuinely quite well balanced and therefore favours the player who plays best on the day.

Thanks ruthlessferengi and my previous opponents, RSE_Chris and dx_chaos, for giving me so much fun and playing so honourably.

Best regards to all

BTW.......I LOST!!!

Pigman

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Post by ruthlessferengi » Mon Jun 15, 2009 2:01 am

Mickar and I had our game. He was on top, so he chose first, and he went Ferengi. I experimented awhile (thanks to Pigman and JBL for providing a testing ground) and finally settled on Cardassians.

In this tournament I was on the bottom and the only guy who had enough sympathy for my inner Ferengi was Carcher, who allowed me to play as Ferengi… That was not to be repeated as I played Roms and Cardies next… I enjoyed all and it was a learning experience as I never played these races â€" so I had to learn the stats â€" which was pain â€" but I was rewarded with a few interesting discoveries…. I am glad I got to experiment a bit, as I would never have appreciated Roms or Cardies for their special abilities and potential.

Against Mickar, I was advised to go Feds. However, that race has a distinct disadvantage to fleet support. While dreids and defiants are worthy ships, the race does not allow to subjugate without severe moral penalties. Hence you are limited to 30 dreids and 20 defiants, running a deficit of -2000. I knew Mickar would not let me wait for the minors to mature and add them up to my collection, so diplomacy â€" and hence â€" Feds were out. Besides, I resolved not to turn this game into a shifting equilibrium of almost equal fleets that keep wiping each other off of a galactic screen only to be reborn for more punishment…Balance somehow had to be tipped and I was hoping Mickar would follow his signature move â€" 30 strikers, a squad of maurad, and 50 raiders â€" and would not try to expand his base trying to build more… Truly, double of that force would make Ferengi unmanageable….

When Gowron stripped Raider to its’ pathetic semblance that I saw in the original BOTF, I was greatly dismayed… Until he finally introduced the Golden Brick of Doom â€" the striker cruiser, Evolved. At birth, this creature features the best torpedo load of any ship in the game â€" 518… after 2 clicks of research (20 turns), it turns into 350 hull 617 power death dealer. It can be produced in mass quantities and ferengi can build up to 40 of these before running into deficit… By turn 25… Unlike Botf Raider II, GBD can ram… and it can ram the living lights out of pretty much anything in the game with a few notable exceptions…

So I knew I had to come with massive amount of hull to withstand his GBD, plus have enough of it to prevent to tip the balance in my favor as Ferengi are capable of resurgence and rebuilding like there is no tomorrow.

Of all the races in the game Cardassians would foot the bill. They would need to be expanded to twice the size and somehow preserved from major engagement until they hatch into a planet busting 3rd generation subjugators… I was confident that at the top of the population utilization and fleet size, I could ram his fleet of whatever he had to offer (without expanding at the expense of AI) = even with 2nd generation Battleship, but that would kill me too so we’d be back where we started 40 turns ago…
We started well, I was in the middle, Roms at my 7 o’clock, kling at 5, feds way in the R lower corner, Ferengi at 3 o’clock. Depending how much dil I had, and where Ferengi were, there were 3 possible openings I could pursue… Well, luck was raining its’ feathers all over my race as ferengi were far away (i.e. no immediate blitzkrieg), I had 3 dil sources (i.e. could build 4 ships per turn), roms were my fodder for future expansion, and Federation â€" they would be the banking machine….

So instead of mass producing BS II (speed one, two turns production with running half intel and half research), I got some energy, research structures while buying cruiser 4 â€" speed 2. With that I snooped around, got a breather and was greatly relieved to see Ferengi far away with dil of 2… for about 4 turns when he registered 4… i.e. he could make 5 ships per turn… So he was gaining…

I identified 3 dil planets between us, let them be and went north and west â€" I found ulna, betazed and made them mine with consequent repercussions. For Few minors, I did not think I did too badly… I found 3 more dil in the far edges of the galaxy and worked my dil to 7.

I befriended Feds and eventually they loved me to bits… We were friends and allies, we held hands, sang kumbaya and, most importantly, they honored me with their cash… I bore down hard on research intel to prevent rapid Ferengi research and tried to research BC IIIâ€" 3 clicks, starting at 17%. In the best case scenario, I’d be looking at turn 60 with existing resources… I build 27 Bs II, 10 TTs to start with, and host of destroyers as flack for orbs. I slowly moved toward rom when I saw as host of 30 Strikers, reborn into final transmutation, moving in my direction… He built fast ships too, 40 of them?? He quickly got 2 dil planets between us and then moved over my sister planet and stopped. He had only 2 TTs.

I powered up, build up a few defences. He brought 2 more TTs and that’s when I cracked… He totally got me â€" psychologically - I don’t know intentionally or not â€" but I kinda decided he is taking the planet down, so I scrapped my industry there.. I spend a considerable amount of time thinking out right planetary assault ratios so I should have known better that 4 tts is never enough… But Mickar’s reputation destabilized me so I panicked… Then was the hilarious part… he did not attack but moved on to Cardassia! So I lost one production planet by pure idiocy and he moved to the system with less orbitals â€" my Cardassia!

By that time I was over sister planet of Romulans â€" poised with my population expanding machine… all lined up… I was 4 turns away from Cardassia so I could not risk going back â€" he would have just rebuild even if I killed his fleet … so I knew I had to trust my defence… I did not really trust it as fully as I killed my industry at Cardassia too! I limited my asinine behavior to those acts of random lunacy and did not commit any more egregious errors ï
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