multi player raid and scrap discussion

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mickar
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Post by mickar » Sun May 17, 2009 4:59 pm

Why is there a need to fix raiding?

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Post by mickar » Sun May 17, 2009 5:02 pm

I meant to put 'fix' like that as I wasn't aware any 'fixing' was required.

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Post by thunderchero » Sun May 17, 2009 5:26 pm

I am not the expert on this subject, but the way I understand it, with a percent bonus of 220% you could raid for more money than actual trade income and bankrupt a system with ease. the new code for raiding limits to 100% I think. So only trade income can be raided.

please correct me if I misunderstood this fix.

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Post by mickar » Sun May 17, 2009 5:41 pm

hmmm, not sure that would 'fix' it. I think that assumes only 1 group of raiding ships. What about more than 1 groups of 9 ships?

But that's not the point I was gonna make. Since the raiding option is open to all, it seems fair.

Instead of 'fixing' it, maybe we could teach the people on the receiving end of the raiding how to make a fleet to kill the raiders?

Or, if the person has a fleet and is just not protecting his home systems that would indicate a tactical error. A refresher on protecting home systems would seem to be in order, again, resulting in no 'fix' needed.

Or, if he has no fleet, why is he continuing the game? How can he win? Once more, no 'fix' is needed.

In short, some people are just better at botf than others.

your posts has been joined if no other memebers have posted please edit last post.

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Post by thunderchero » Sun May 17, 2009 11:59 pm

@mickar,

As I said before I am not an expert on why raiding percent needs to be changed/edited. I hope flocke will have time soon to explain why this should be done.

but as also stated it is flocke tournament "mod" so this means changes have been made from vanilla.

so I propose a compromise 1.0.2 unedited will be part of rotation. :wink:

Also Mickar made some good points, we should play mods as modder intended. Balance was never ment to be part of this game. And in the star trek universe who says life is fair. :wink:

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Last edited by thunderchero on Mon May 18, 2009 6:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Flocke » Mon May 18, 2009 5:40 am

thunderchero wrote:Balance was never ment to be part of this game.
But it should be, and you lowered the scrap revenue to 50% in 1.0.3 to face a known annoyity as well.
I don't want to limit raiding on 100%, with thunderchero pointing at me.
200% is ok in my opinion, but think about 300% or 400% which currently is possible with legendary fleets, depending on race.
Go raiding with 5 legendary destroyer fleets and depending on systems in range, you may get up to 100000Cr each turn. It's not caring about the amount of money the opponent actually is having but still takes it out of his wallet causing a deep minus and preventing him from building anything.

I think that's a bit too imbalanced and unrealistic.
After scrapping being limited, raiding became most important for income and at least a main factor for economy. That's just too much.
In my last fight I had 3 fleets of veteran destroyers raiding only cardassia and one small colony next to it. Raiding it 2 or 3 turns, severenth has been deep in the minus I guess, cause I raided above 3000Cr each turn. This didn't only make him loose cardassia, but stopped all his economy on all systems. Why still bothering to conquer systems?
No, this definitely needs a little adjustment.

Additionally scrap revenue should be lessened to 25%, or colony ship cost and the cost of a few others needs to be changed, for really stopping the annoying massive build-upgrade-scrap issue.

I want it to keep as much vanilla as possible as well, but some things are just annoying in mp cause of their imbalance.

We could go thinking about the k'vort and other things as well, but I believe they are more complicated. I wouldn't like to change the power of these greatful ships, and it's not fair changing their maintenance or cost, without taking intel into account as well.
Cause I currently don't feel like creating another bop, I keep my "demands" on most important stuff that get's experienced in mp, and cancelling all the trading routes has for sure been a bit drastic. It was a short, just in time fix aiming tech3 tournament and I appreciate thunderchero wanting to review it. :)

In my opinion, we could also use this mod for experiencing changements a little and if they get accepted, adapting them for 1.0.3 and it's followups. ;)

If there's more need for discussion on that mod, it might be good to start a new thread. 8)

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Post by mickar » Mon May 18, 2009 11:55 am

Flocke,

No offense but it seems to me, and only in my humble opinion, that the changes you want are to serve one purpose only: To make the inferior player better.

Raiding is available to everyone. Scrapping is available to everyone.

Teach these people to play the game and you won't have to 'mod' the great game of botf.

End of rant.

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Post by KrazeeXXL » Mon May 18, 2009 2:20 pm

I don't share your opinion mickar

and this one
thunderchero wrote:Balance was never ment to be part of this game
neither (I read some comments of the developers and they tried to balance the game... therefor)

I mean you can't balance this game Command&Conquer like (and this would be more than boring btw) but a tournament is a chance to find out how to balance the game better.
Flocke with his big multiplayer experience made some good points about the balancing issue and his proposals make sense for me.

Especially the one for the raiding percentage:
It isn't logical that you're able to steal 400% of the money which is produced by a system or is it? I mean that I don't want to give the enemy raiding fleet an american style credit...

IMO it is unbalancing the game a lot. The destruction of the whole economy by raiding one single system is something to think about.
And therefor I like Gowrons raiding solution in BOP which allows you only 100% of raiding percentage.

I have to admit that 100% isn't much and so I tend to agree to Flocke with his 200% solution. So you can get some bucks and you can't fail the whole economy of the opponent easily and at once.

I won't call this "fuss" or "rant". This themes are about to think about the fairness factor and to make this game more enjoyable for both. Experienced and less experienced players.

But if you want a game in which you send your fleet to raid me and parallel I send my one to raid you... then so it be... it's more than boring but some ppl seem to like it so...

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Post by Flocke » Mon May 18, 2009 2:48 pm

mickar wrote:...that the changes you want are to serve one purpose only: To make the inferior player better.
This is nonsense!
Raiding is available to everyone. Scrapping is available to everyone.
I don't want to make raiding ineffective, but with you claiming or suggerating to be an experienced player, you should know about the current raiding capabilities and you should know why in 1.0.3 scrap revenue has been lowered! If you love this shit crap of imbalance, than stick with 1.0.2 like thunderchero suggested.

Sry man, but currently you are in luck if people decide to conquer your systems instead of raiding them. Think about!

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Post by mickar » Mon May 18, 2009 2:57 pm

KrazeeXXL,

I've been playing this game for about 9 years now and have played thousands of multi games online and the bankrupt by raiding scenario that Flocke and you describe has never happened to me, never. It just doesn't happen.

Obviously, Flocke is just a much better player than the person he raided to death. Does it make any sense to change the great game of botf just so flocke's opponents don't get raided to death? That's like changing feds industry or hc cost because mickar can make more fed hc than anyone else.

I would suggest that flocke or you play opponents with a higher skill level. You could play me and I guarantee you this raiding thing won't be an issue.

Now, as far as the unbalance thing goes... Yes, 1 to 1 games are unbalanced. But this game was designed for multiple players in a game. Try a 2 vs 2 or 3 vs 2 game and it isn't unbalanced.

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Post by Flocke » Mon May 18, 2009 3:17 pm

The times people got bankrot have been countless and it's not a matter of experience.
It hasn't been that drastic with vanilla, cause experienced players know they could scrap their ships to get enough money back.
I'm not aiming to balance vanilla but the 1.0.3 mod and in that mod, you'll get much less money by scrapping ships, so it's just obvious to lower raiding as well.

Beside this, it is unrealistic to maintain a fleet with -5000Cr total income (maintenance) each turn by raiding bankrupt ai, but I've already done this more than once.
Raiding currently underpasses the complete economic system of botf, that's what I call imbalanced and want to change.

Your argumentation aimes more at 1.0.3 mod than this tournament modification. Wonder if you already played 1.0.3 and know its changements. :roll:

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Post by mickar » Mon May 18, 2009 3:22 pm

Flocke,

A good player wouldn't allow himself to be raided. I don't know who you've been playing but if they allow this then they are inexperienced. Or if they've played alot of games and still allow this, then they are just bad players. Like I said, some people can play botf better than others as it should be.

The scrap for money thing is available to all, it is fair. Teach your inferior opponents how to do it.

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Post by Flocke » Mon May 18, 2009 3:49 pm

mickar wrote:The scrap for money thing is available to all, it is fair.
Than vote for a 1.0.2 tournament , 1.0.3 already lessened the outcome.
Don't you read or what?

If you are cool with 1.0.2, have your fun, noone detains you.
But me and many others aren't compfortable with 1.0.2 anymore and why not improving things when possible :!:

I have heard your opinion, maybe we get others.
Anyway, it might be wise to split this discussion to another thread.

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Post by thunderchero » Mon May 18, 2009 3:52 pm

mickar,

after reading your past few comments, I am surprised you have entered Balance of power tournament. All of these changes are in BOP and many more.

example of scraping and raiding in BOP

all upgrades for ships have same cost as first ship built (no more waiting for ship to upgrade before scrapping for extra money). also scrapping is down to 15%. no fleet will have a raiding % above 100%. and so many other changes.

Balance of power is almost a complete new game. and take a complete differant style of game play.

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Post by mickar » Mon May 18, 2009 3:57 pm

Flocke,

I can see that I'm annoying you, given your remarks so this is the last you'll hear from me on this topic.

1.02 botf is the greatest game, superior to any mod made. Veteran players, those with experience AND skill, can play a multi game with each other and it CAN be balanced. All the available 'tricks' are utilized by BOTH players, it is fair.

It seems to me that you have poor raiding impulse. Instead of taking away something that is available to BOTH opponents, may I suggest you stop raiding?

And play opponents with your skill level, then you will stop trying to take away from this great game. If you are not 'comfortable' with 1.02 then you are choosing the wrong opponents.

In short, stop trying to penalize the good players and rewarding the bad players. Some people are just better at botf than others.

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