SUGGESTION: Hall of Fame

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Pigman
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Post by Pigman » Fri Jun 19, 2009 1:15 pm

Hi RSE_Chris

I've looked at the link ref Cases ladder and agree that it's a relatively simple system. However, a few observations.

1. Getting started
Everyone starts as unranked. The first player to win goes to the top, and the ladder begins from there.
By this, if I read it literally, the first player to get a positive result goes to top of ladder and positions below get filled in by subsequent winners?

Ist step in my proposal either takes a known quantity (previous tournament results) or it pairs all players against each other in a series of rounds, just like a knock out tournament, to establish an initial pecking order.

With the case system the ladder will either be very random in terms of ability, at the initial phase, or once the first player wins his game everyone will want to challenge him rather than play any other game.

2. Progressing in rank
If you look at the ranking system it explains how it was played. If the person at #1 is beaten by the person at #10, then the person at #10 moves up half way to position #5. If the person at #1 is beaten by the person at #2, then they swap positions.

This takes into account all games played. Whereas If you played on the basis of simply swapping positions with your defeated opponent, it is not an accurate reflection on the players ability (they could get lucky for example).
In the Case system if you play a player immediately above you and win, you simply swap positions anyway, which was what I was proposing. If they get lucky, they get lucky, it's the same in both systems.

Difference/benefit with my proposal is that you can only be challenged by someone in the rank below you, which means a loss is far less likely due to luck as your opponent should be of a similar skill level.

3. Choice of Mod
I also suggest this is done with vanilla 102 only. Reason being that mods are often changed and therfore would not be a good reflection on the ladder. Vanilla never changes, therefore is very good for this sort of league.
Just to be clear, I am proposing multiple pyramids(Mods) running side by side.

This would be self regulating. I proposed a minimum of 8 entrants to make any Mod worth running, so if people don't want to play any particular Mod, they won't. Also, as I completely accept you assertion that Mods are developing all of the time, with this in mind I would propose a 12 month freeze on any Mods used in these competitions (and most definitely in my view Vanilla 1.02 should be included/but again, the demand has to be there).

4. Star Trek Flavour and Fun Factor
As this is a tried and tested model, I suggest this is the way we go forward. Keeping track of player positions is much easier than keeping track of accumulated points, and with the way the ladder is structured, people will still get credit from winning games by their position on the ladder.
Are you honestly saying that it's more fun to say woopie-doo, I'm up to 8th on the ladder or wouldn't you prefer to say I've achieved rank of Lieutenant Commander, or ulimately Mod Captain!

Also, the points system I propose is very simple and will probably reward the players who are prepared to get their hands dirty and play all Mods that are running, as the Fleet Captain is the player with the most ranking points across all Mods in play.

I'm not dismissing your suggestion by any means, I just think mine's more fun and more or less guarantees that most matches will end up being played by players of similar ability. (Not too many easy wins).

Unfortunately, the reality is that demand may not be there as the last 2 tournaments have involved only 16 players in each and mostly duplicates, out of a 7000+ strong community.

SO COME ON EVERYONE, TELL US WHAT YOU WANT!!

Regards

Pigman

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Post by Pigman » Fri Jun 19, 2009 1:24 pm

In fact, slight amendment. Why not just count up all of your pips across all pyramid Mod competitions you're involved in and we'll count Lieutenant Commander as 2.5 pips.


Regards

Pigman

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RSE_Chris
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Post by RSE_Chris » Fri Jun 19, 2009 1:37 pm

Pigman wrote: By this, if I read it literally, the first player to get a positive result goes to top of ladder and positions below get filled in by subsequent winners?

Ist step in my proposal either takes a known quantity (previous tournament results) or it pairs all players against each other in a series of rounds, just like a knock out tournament, to establish an initial pecking order.

With the case system the ladder will either be very random in terms of ability, at the initial phase, or once the first player wins his game everyone will want to challenge him rather than play any other game.
Yes, first come first serve. I don't think starting positions matter too much; they will soon change from challenges. As for the top person only getting challenges; the rules about only one challenge to one person being open at any one time eliminates this.
Pigman wrote:2. Progressing in rank

In the Case system if you play a player immediately above you and win, you simply swap positions anyway, which was what I was proposing. If they get lucky, they get lucky, it's the same in both systems.

Difference/benefit with my proposal is that you can only be challenged by someone in the rank below you, which means a loss is far less likely due to luck as your opponent should be of a similar skill level.
Having the ability to be challenged by anyone below your rank (within reason) would give far more variety of challenges.
Pigman wrote:3. Choice of Mod

Just to be clear, I am proposing multiple pyramids(Mods) running side by side.

This would be self regulating. I proposed a minimum of 8 entrants to make any Mod worth running, so if people don't want to play any particular Mod, they won't. Also, as I completely accept you assertion that Mods are developing all of the time, with this in mind I would propose a 12 month freeze on any Mods used in these competitions (and most definitely in my view Vanilla 1.02 should be included/but again, the demand has to be there).
That would be a lot of work! If yourself or someone else has the willingess to run that amount of ladder games, then good on you. However, I have found that players tend to focus on one ladder, which is constantly on-going. This may mean not many people participate in more than one mod.

Also, if the Case's sytem can be/is used, people who do not play a game within any 3 week time period are automatically kicked from the ladder. Again, with multiple ladders on the go, this might happen to many people who use the Case system. The way around this of course would be to not use the Case system.
Pigman wrote:4. Star Trek Flavour and Fun Factor

Are you honestly saying that it's more fun to say woopie-doo, I'm up to 8th on the ladder or wouldn't you prefer to say I've achieved rank of Lieutenant Commander, or ulimately Mod Captain!

Also, the points system I propose is very simple and will probably reward the players who are prepared to get their hands dirty and play all Mods that are running, as the Fleet Captain is the player with the most ranking points across all Mods in play.
This is probably just down to preference. I for one am not bothered what I am called, I think changing people's titles in an ever-changing ladder will create more un-needed work. I think the key to a succesful ladder is simplicity in it's entirety.

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RSE_Dissy
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Post by RSE_Dissy » Fri Jun 19, 2009 1:46 pm

Cases system for the win

Simplicity for the win

Complicated trees such as pigman explains for the loss
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Pigman
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Post by Pigman » Fri Jun 19, 2009 2:24 pm

RSE_Dissy

My proposed system is about as simple as you can get, but I don't feel so strongly about it that I have to push it to death.

Most important, I think is to get some kind of competition going, whether it's pyramid or ladder, so as to get more people playing and I believe they will play more if it means something, than play friendlies.

I've now played in 3 tournaments, but I bet I haven't played more than 5 or 6 friendlies, but if there was such a side competition, I know I'd play and I think others would too.

I think we need a new topic, as this one's actually about hall of fame and I don't think people are looking as Hall of fame's for about 2 or 3 guys only.

Maybe we could poll for preference Pyramid/Ladder and for Mod preferences. Make sure people can see discussion on both systems and make informed choice and then take results and do something about it?

Regards

Pigman

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mickar
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Post by mickar » Sat Jun 20, 2009 11:49 am

Ok, since I first mentioned ladders I guess I'll chime in with me two cents.

Pigman, I like your pyramid except mickar should be right below ruthless and above you/brandybean.:wink:

I think that any system where we can be ranked based on wins/losses and who we win/lose against is good. We should start with vanilla, since it never changes, and see how it goes.

I like a ladder because it's easy to administer and you can clearly see where your ranking is.

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Post by Pigman » Sat Jun 20, 2009 12:05 pm

Hi mickar

Pyramid is just as easy to administer (in fact easier as you don't have to calculate half way point between challenger and challenged as you can only challenge rank above you and if you win you swap.....couldn't be easier), but I have no problem with either.

I do feel that the pyramid, psychologically, is more encouraging, especially to newer or less experienced players, who don't feel lost in the abyss of the lower ladder rungs, but instead see themselves in a peer group of the same rank.

As for your position above myself and brandybeans, you are quite right and no disrespect for your position in the final of BoP was intended, however, I wouldn't change it as firstly I was only trying to show an example of how it would work and secondly, I wouldn't have a pyramid structure that only allowed one person to challenge the top player.

It was an attempt to establish an initial hierarchy, based on a recent tournament result, but it would never be right if only one person could challenge the Captain. In my set up any of the three Commanders can challenge the Captain, any of the four Lieutenant Commanders can Challenge any of the three Commanders and any of the eight Lieutenants can challenge any of the four Lieutenant Commanders.

If enough people want to join we can have Lt Jgs or Ensigns on another rank below.

Hopefully my idea is clear, but if not please ask.

Regards

Pigman

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RSE_Chris
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Post by RSE_Chris » Sat Jun 20, 2009 4:28 pm

To get back on topic, there seems to be consensus for a Hall of Fame.

So who is going to draw it up? Once it is done I assume we would just need to politely ask Thunder to make it a sticky. :)

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