I bought BotF way back in 1999 shortly after its release and recently started playing it again. Now, one thing that's always had me puzzled is the exact implications of cloaking in tactical combat. Sure, if there are two sides with one of them being fully cloaked and the other not at all, it's easy - the cloaked ships get a free turn. In other circumstances, it's not as obvious, and I'd like to make sure that I understand this correctly. Some of my unconscious assumptions may already be wrong. If so, they ought to be corrected.
So, here are a few different scenarios:
-One side is fully cloaked, the other has both cloaked and uncloaked ships. Whether the uncloaked ships are in the same class as the cloaked ships or not also seems to matter, right?
-Both sides have both cloaked and uncloaked ships.
-One side has cloaked and uncloaked ships, the other is not cloaked at all.
-Both sides are fully cloaked.
-There are three or even more sides, possibly with affiliations and/or alliances. There are quite a few different possiblities here.
-The battle takes place in the vicinity of a black hole. I seem to remember that this would nullify the free turn, but I haven't been able to reproduce the effect.
So, what would happen under which circumstances? Did I miss any scenarios? What are the underlying principles?
Also, does it matter who owns the cloaked ships - and does it matter if the cloaked ships are Romulan, Klingon or Yridian?
A full list of the tactical implications of cloaking
Moderator: thunderchero
Re: A full list of the tactical implications of cloaking
Welcome to the BOTF forums, Free_Bird! I'm not sure I can answer all of your questions, but I'll do my best. 
It doesn't affect anything, no. The side that's fully cloaked still gets a free attack/move regardless.
Both sides attack at the same time. (Of course, the side with the higher percentage of cloaked ships generally has the advantage.)
Both sides attack at the same time. Any cloaked vessels cannot be fired upon, though (in the first combat turn).
It's essentially a normal battle: Both sides attack at the same time, and both sides' ships can be attacked (despite having been cloaked).
This one's a bit more complicated, but it's still relatively straightforward:
Unless two (or more) sides in a battle are allied with each other, any side that's completely cloaked gets to attack first (or retreat, if they so choose). If there are two (or more) sides that are completely cloaked, then they can only attack the uncloaked side(s) the first combat turn; they cannot attack each other until the second combat turn.
If two (or more) sides in a battle ARE allied with each other, then they attack as one fleet. Thus, an allied fleet gets a free attack/move ONLY if it completely consists of cloaked vessels. A mixed allied cloaked/uncloaked fleet does not get a free attack (although as usual, cloaked vessels are immune from attack until the second combat turn).
That's the first time I've ever heard that. As far as I'm aware, a black hole has no effect during battles (which has also been my own experience).
I believe we've covered everything, at least that I can think of offhand. If something else occurs to me, though, I'll post it here.
No and no.
Free_Bird wrote:-One side is fully cloaked, the other has both cloaked and uncloaked ships. Whether the uncloaked ships are in the same class as the cloaked ships or not also seems to matter, right?
It doesn't affect anything, no. The side that's fully cloaked still gets a free attack/move regardless.
Free_Bird wrote:-Both sides have both cloaked and uncloaked ships.
Both sides attack at the same time. (Of course, the side with the higher percentage of cloaked ships generally has the advantage.)
Free_Bird wrote:-One side has cloaked and uncloaked ships, the other is not cloaked at all.
Both sides attack at the same time. Any cloaked vessels cannot be fired upon, though (in the first combat turn).
Free_Bird wrote:-Both sides are fully cloaked.
It's essentially a normal battle: Both sides attack at the same time, and both sides' ships can be attacked (despite having been cloaked).
Free_Bird wrote:-There are three or even more sides, possibly with affiliations and/or alliances. There are quite a few different possiblities here.
This one's a bit more complicated, but it's still relatively straightforward:
Unless two (or more) sides in a battle are allied with each other, any side that's completely cloaked gets to attack first (or retreat, if they so choose). If there are two (or more) sides that are completely cloaked, then they can only attack the uncloaked side(s) the first combat turn; they cannot attack each other until the second combat turn.
If two (or more) sides in a battle ARE allied with each other, then they attack as one fleet. Thus, an allied fleet gets a free attack/move ONLY if it completely consists of cloaked vessels. A mixed allied cloaked/uncloaked fleet does not get a free attack (although as usual, cloaked vessels are immune from attack until the second combat turn).
Free_Bird wrote:-The battle takes place in the vicinity of a black hole. I seem to remember that this would nullify the free turn, but I haven't been able to reproduce the effect.
That's the first time I've ever heard that. As far as I'm aware, a black hole has no effect during battles (which has also been my own experience).
Free_Bird wrote:So, what would happen under which circumstances? Did I miss any scenarios? What are the underlying principles?
I believe we've covered everything, at least that I can think of offhand. If something else occurs to me, though, I'll post it here.
Free_Bird wrote:Also, does it matter who owns the cloaked ships - and does it matter if the cloaked ships are Romulan, Klingon or Yridian?
No and no.
"Evil is easy, and has infinite forms." -- Pascal
Re: A full list of the tactical implications of cloaking
Hello everyone,
just a small comment for now:
Two little practice tricks in this connection:
(a) When klings and roms are going into battle against each other, you should always bring one uncloaked vessel along. Makes the enemy fire on that vessel, while you are still cloaked. The enemy uncloaks and thereafter you can fire on him undisturbed while he has to wait. When both come into battle with one uncloaked vessel, both loose this advantage.
(b) make sure your uncloaked vessel is of a different kind than the cloaked vessel, lest they will be hit by stray fire because ships of the same type tend to move together. This particularly bad because cloaked vessels have no shields.
just a small comment for now:
Two little practice tricks in this connection:
(a) When klings and roms are going into battle against each other, you should always bring one uncloaked vessel along. Makes the enemy fire on that vessel, while you are still cloaked. The enemy uncloaks and thereafter you can fire on him undisturbed while he has to wait. When both come into battle with one uncloaked vessel, both loose this advantage.
(b) make sure your uncloaked vessel is of a different kind than the cloaked vessel, lest they will be hit by stray fire because ships of the same type tend to move together. This particularly bad because cloaked vessels have no shields.
Re: A full list of the tactical implications of cloaking
Coracle wrote:(a) When klings and roms are going into battle against each other, you should always bring one uncloaked vessel along. Makes the enemy fire on that vessel, while you are still cloaked. The enemy uncloaks and thereafter you can fire on him undisturbed while he has to wait. When both come into battle with one uncloaked vessel, both loose this advantage.
Indeed. I too often use this tactic; it works very well.
Coracle wrote:(b) make sure your uncloaked vessel is of a different kind than the cloaked vessel, lest they will be hit by stray fire because ships of the same type tend to move together. This particularly bad because cloaked vessels have no shields.
Can cloaked ships even be hit by stray torpedoes? I've never noticed that happen in any of my games.
"Evil is easy, and has infinite forms." -- Pascal
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Fire_Drake
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Re: A full list of the tactical implications of cloaking
yes they can.Martok wrote:Can cloaked ships even be hit by stray torpedoes? I've never noticed that happen in any of my games.
if u have one hvy uncloaked in a fleet of cloaked hvys and the other fleet is fully cloaked they get a free move like normal. the fully cloaked fleet can then do a group attack move on the lone uncloaked hvy. the lone ship will get killed and some of the other torpedos will can hit as stray shots or something of that sort.
ive seen it happen plenty of times
Okay, I think it's clear to me now. Unfortunately it means that there's no way to be certain that a ship can always retreat against superior forces. Even if it's cloaked, it might run into a cloaked task force and not be able to escape.
Furthermore, when all ships are cloaked, they already raise their shields during the first turn, right?
I guess this is all the more reason to eliminate the Klingons (and the Yridians, if applicable) as quickly as possible when you're playing as the Romulans, to avoid unpleasant surprises.
Furthermore, when all ships are cloaked, they already raise their shields during the first turn, right?
I guess this is all the more reason to eliminate the Klingons (and the Yridians, if applicable) as quickly as possible when you're playing as the Romulans, to avoid unpleasant surprises.
Re: A full list of the tactical implications of cloaking
Martok wrote:Free_Bird wrote:-Both sides are fully cloaked.
It's essentially a normal battle: Both sides attack at the same time, and both sides' ships can be attacked (despite having been cloaked).
I just realized this part from my earlier post isn't quite right. So to correct/clarify:
If both sides' fleets in a battle consist of all cloaked ships, then both sides will start the battle uncloaked. The battle then proceeds as normal.
"Evil is easy, and has infinite forms." -- Pascal
Let me try and explain in detail one more time:
Cloaked ships have one free turn of shots or movement and thereafter they are uncloaked. Cloaked ships' shields are down during this turn.
Cloaked ships against an armada of uncloaked ships
... this is exactly what happens: a free turn. They can use it to fire or to retreat, just as they wish.
Cloaked ships against cloaked ships
... nothing happens during the (imaginary) first turn, because both cannot really see each other. The first turn is therefore skipped and you get directly into the second turn where both are uncloaked.
Cloaked ships against a mix of cloaked and uncloaked ships:
During the first turn, the cloaked ships can fire, but can only see and fire at the uncloaked ships. Because of this shot, the cloaked vessels are then uncloaked and can be seen and fired at. The other (mixed) side has not done anything yet. Now their cloaked ships can fire back at the ships which were cloaked but are now uncloaked (and at everyone else). This gives them a free turn. This is an enormous advantage, which is why bringing along an uncloaked vessel if fighting cloaked against cloaked is a must. On the third turn all ships are uncloaked and can fire at will.
During the free turn, the cloaked ships can also retreat if they like. The uncloaked ships were probably lost during the first turn anyway.
Mixed armada against a mixed armada:
All ships can fire on first turn, but can only see and fire at the uncloaked ships or retreat. On second turn, everyone is uncloaked and can fire at will.
Special Issues:
The one uncloaked vessel trick in practice
As mentioned before, beware of stray fire when bringing mixed armadas into battle. Also keep in mind that, when you have at least one Scout in your armada, you can see the battle settings of your opponent's ships (like "circle" or "strafe") and you can react by changing your own settings befor hitting "turn".
For Klingons it is easy: you bring along an uncloaked TT with your cloaked Kvorts and cloaked Scouts because TTS have the same speed as Kvorts but are of a totally different class and battle movement. There is almost no danger of stray fire and you always have Scouts left to see what your opponent does.
For Romulans, if you travel with Warbirds you can also bring a TT. But with BCs, the TTs may often be too slow and you might therefore decide to bring one uncloaked Scout along instead. But this also means that bringing additional (cloaked) Scouts may be risky because of the stray fire. Yet, Scouts are cheap and the risk may be worth it.
A good tactic against Klingon Kvorts for Romulans is to build a large number of Destroyers (Ratio 3-1 against Kvorts will win every battle and you can build faster because of the extra 2 Dilithium you can have). Destroyers move faster than BCs and Scouts (3 Sectors per turn), therefore the one uncloaked Scout you bring along may make your armada slower. Also, the Scout is of a different type but still stays closer to the Destroyers than TTs and there may be a (small) risk of stray fire. But these are compromises one may want to make because going into a battle with your fully cloaked armada against a mixed armada is suicide.
Two special niceties:
Nebula: A cloaked scout hiding in a Nebula can destroy a Heavy Cruiser or even a Command because it can fire unseen while the HCs shields are down and the HC cannot return the fire. Success rate may depend on training level, but it can be fun.
Edo-Training: when you meet the Edo with a cloaked ship, you can fire on first turn, then hail. The Edo is stupid and will not know who fired and will not fire back at you on the second turn but hail back. Then the battle is over. Then just keep the ships lurking in the Edo sector and repeat every turn. Your ships will be legendary within about 5 turns. If you want to keep this facility, make sure not to destroy it. The Edo will usually survive the attack of 5 Klingon Kvorts or 5 Romulan BCs on veteran level, so don't bring in more than 5 of those for training at once. When your first group of 5 is trained, bring in the second group. Edo-Training works so good that it is considered a "cheat" in Multiplayer games.
Coracle RSA_9
Cloaked ships have one free turn of shots or movement and thereafter they are uncloaked. Cloaked ships' shields are down during this turn.
Cloaked ships against an armada of uncloaked ships
... this is exactly what happens: a free turn. They can use it to fire or to retreat, just as they wish.
Cloaked ships against cloaked ships
... nothing happens during the (imaginary) first turn, because both cannot really see each other. The first turn is therefore skipped and you get directly into the second turn where both are uncloaked.
Cloaked ships against a mix of cloaked and uncloaked ships:
During the first turn, the cloaked ships can fire, but can only see and fire at the uncloaked ships. Because of this shot, the cloaked vessels are then uncloaked and can be seen and fired at. The other (mixed) side has not done anything yet. Now their cloaked ships can fire back at the ships which were cloaked but are now uncloaked (and at everyone else). This gives them a free turn. This is an enormous advantage, which is why bringing along an uncloaked vessel if fighting cloaked against cloaked is a must. On the third turn all ships are uncloaked and can fire at will.
During the free turn, the cloaked ships can also retreat if they like. The uncloaked ships were probably lost during the first turn anyway.
Mixed armada against a mixed armada:
All ships can fire on first turn, but can only see and fire at the uncloaked ships or retreat. On second turn, everyone is uncloaked and can fire at will.
Special Issues:
The one uncloaked vessel trick in practice
As mentioned before, beware of stray fire when bringing mixed armadas into battle. Also keep in mind that, when you have at least one Scout in your armada, you can see the battle settings of your opponent's ships (like "circle" or "strafe") and you can react by changing your own settings befor hitting "turn".
For Klingons it is easy: you bring along an uncloaked TT with your cloaked Kvorts and cloaked Scouts because TTS have the same speed as Kvorts but are of a totally different class and battle movement. There is almost no danger of stray fire and you always have Scouts left to see what your opponent does.
For Romulans, if you travel with Warbirds you can also bring a TT. But with BCs, the TTs may often be too slow and you might therefore decide to bring one uncloaked Scout along instead. But this also means that bringing additional (cloaked) Scouts may be risky because of the stray fire. Yet, Scouts are cheap and the risk may be worth it.
A good tactic against Klingon Kvorts for Romulans is to build a large number of Destroyers (Ratio 3-1 against Kvorts will win every battle and you can build faster because of the extra 2 Dilithium you can have). Destroyers move faster than BCs and Scouts (3 Sectors per turn), therefore the one uncloaked Scout you bring along may make your armada slower. Also, the Scout is of a different type but still stays closer to the Destroyers than TTs and there may be a (small) risk of stray fire. But these are compromises one may want to make because going into a battle with your fully cloaked armada against a mixed armada is suicide.
Two special niceties:
Nebula: A cloaked scout hiding in a Nebula can destroy a Heavy Cruiser or even a Command because it can fire unseen while the HCs shields are down and the HC cannot return the fire. Success rate may depend on training level, but it can be fun.
Edo-Training: when you meet the Edo with a cloaked ship, you can fire on first turn, then hail. The Edo is stupid and will not know who fired and will not fire back at you on the second turn but hail back. Then the battle is over. Then just keep the ships lurking in the Edo sector and repeat every turn. Your ships will be legendary within about 5 turns. If you want to keep this facility, make sure not to destroy it. The Edo will usually survive the attack of 5 Klingon Kvorts or 5 Romulan BCs on veteran level, so don't bring in more than 5 of those for training at once. When your first group of 5 is trained, bring in the second group. Edo-Training works so good that it is considered a "cheat" in Multiplayer games.
Coracle RSA_9
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Dr_Breen
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the stray fire is actually affected by the experience value of those ships attacking a mixed fleet.
example:
You have a fleet of very experienced (5 stars) klingon Bc´s attacking a mixed fleet of romulan command ships.
as soon as you select the target to fire at, which would be one of the uncloaked romulan command ships, ANY OTHER romulan command ship in the battle will be selected as well. you can clearly see it by the green frame around them.
so against very experienced ships a cloaking device can become a disadvantage if not handled correctly
example:
You have a fleet of very experienced (5 stars) klingon Bc´s attacking a mixed fleet of romulan command ships.
as soon as you select the target to fire at, which would be one of the uncloaked romulan command ships, ANY OTHER romulan command ship in the battle will be selected as well. you can clearly see it by the green frame around them.
so against very experienced ships a cloaking device can become a disadvantage if not handled correctly
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Dr_Breen
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exactly.
however i never tried what happens if you have a bunch of very experienced ships and thell them to evade, against a mixed fleet.
usually when you pick evade they fire on everything, so they might also hit cloaked ships? perhaps someone should try
however i never tried what happens if you have a bunch of very experienced ships and thell them to evade, against a mixed fleet.
usually when you pick evade they fire on everything, so they might also hit cloaked ships? perhaps someone should try
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Spocks-cuddly-tribble
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Check out this post and this post.Dr_Breen wrote:the stray fire is actually affected by the experience value of those ships attacking a mixed fleet.
example:
You have a fleet of very experienced (5 stars) klingon Bc´s attacking a mixed fleet of romulan command ships.
as soon as you select the target to fire at, which would be one of the uncloaked romulan command ships, ANY OTHER romulan command ship in the battle will be selected as well. you can clearly see it by the green frame around them.
so against very experienced ships a cloaking device can become a disadvantage if not handled correctly
I don't know how many bugs is too many but that point is reached somewhere before however many in BotF is.
