Vanilla Race Balancing?

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Mr_Sloan
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Vanilla Race Balancing?

Post by Mr_Sloan »

On Vanilla say on T3 or T4 on small or medium maps...

are all the races balanced for the expert players?

a friend of mine says yes. I am a bit weaker, saying romulans and klingons, with their cloak especially on smaller maps are far better then e.g. Ferengi...

what do you think?
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Re: Vanilla Race Balancing?

Post by thunderchero »

That is a trick question, to play as Ferengi you must have played with them regularly to know all there advantages.

The Ferengi are very good at credits and building ships quickly, but if you do not have the systems to re-build a fleets quickly (because you will lose ships) game over.

The klingon have the Heavy cruiser by far one of the best ships in the game, but in vanilla they are vulnerable to ramming with cheap quick ships (if they survive cloak attack).

Romulans are well rounded race with a bonus in intel, but if ships are used correctly very dangerous.

non-cloaked vs cloaked combat, hint watch for them about to assault a system when they are de-cloaked

in conclusion all races if you practice with them you can win. but if you are a first time player or out of practice of Ferengi you would probably lose.
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Re: Vanilla Race Balancing?

Post by Mr_Sloan »

thunderchero wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:58 pm
non-cloaked vs cloaked combat, hint watch for them about to assault a system when they are de-cloaked
So basicly moving back, away from own worlds but in range if they decide to assault...

I am experienced, good with klingons, romulans etc. also heared about that way to play with the ferenig in that fassion. but i am not a progamer knowing everything that is suggested in vanilla.

Thats sad sometimes in good games, that player are on totaly different levels. e.g. in chess. Especially since there are not many birth players left... but the good thing is there are ajustments that could be done to go down or up to the level of the other player.

I will definatly make a canon-ship mod, based on vanilla.

And i intend to round some known strenght. Like Cloak or Heavy Cruiser fleets etc. While still give them their race-flavor strenght. e.g. maybe tuning down klingons heavey cruiser but strenghen the other canon klingon ships a bit more.

And Federation definatly needs a Section 31 Network for offensive intel, with a big malus in moral ;)
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Re: Vanilla Race Balancing?

Post by thunderchero »

You might want to check out other mods for multiplayer games that are ready based on vanilla.

Fluid's Multi player mod and thunderchero's Multi player mod

My mod was based on changes that Fluid made, but also added escort type ship to all races plus a few more changes suggested by some of the best ever experienced multi players. This mod was used in several tournaments we had about 10 years ago.

Changes within thunderchero M\P mod (full read me has ship and structure lists)

Add a training structure for Ferengi. this would be done by the ferengi and romulan sharing the current "Naval Academy" the Ferengi would be given the lowest bonus of 30 training per turn.

Changing game starts to allow more upgrade options at start of each level,
new starts would be 1, 3, 5, 7, 9.

Scrapping will be reset to give 25% instead of the current square root.

Give back Ferengi free trade for minors only. (Note; they would not be able to trade with majors without treaty but also get no warning about it) Also they would get no bonus to Minor Attitude until the have treaty. AI will still be able to trade with majors freely

Remove the requirement for second TT to build starbase (if tech requirement is meet it will auto upgrade)

Ramming actual current hull value is used

editing ECM2 to allow phantom dilithium(i.e. not fix it) but remove warnings

The ship list changes:

The Galaxy class takes the old Galaxy X slot

The Ambassador class takes the old Galaxy slot

The Excelsior class takes the old Ambassador slot

The Sovereign class model was removed

The Command Cruiser now will have 2 upgrades (2nd upgrade is equal to Dreadnought II stats/requirements) (all races)

The Destroyers instead of 2 types (light and heavy) will now have 3 upgrades Destroyer I - IV (all races)

All Races were given the Escort class Destroyer (Defiant type ship) for balance

Some of the other models Have also moved to new type slots (for complete list of changes see ship list below) (on final release)

All Troop Transports and Colony ships have speed of 1 and will have weapons

All strike cruisers have speed of 2

New map sizes; 22 x 15, 30 x 22, 40 x 30
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Re: Vanilla Race Balancing?

Post by Mr_Sloan »

I will definatly take a close look at fluid´s and your multiplayer mod and export ship stats.

For ship models i will use UDM, because its compatible with MPR+ and 1080.

I wonder what else i can import from your mod without importing bugs.

e.g. how to give Ferengi free trade routs for minors only?

I also wonder how to add dominion ships...
a) Add them to cardassians...
b) make a ferengi Dominion alliance (since ferengi are actually not as much of a major as the others and dominion...)
c) leave cardis and ferengi as they are and add dominion as a minor or not adding dominion at all.

i tend to a or b.

Goals for the mods are:
- canon
- let it remain balanced but changing some stuff to make it fresh.

so that both casuals and pros got an intresting experience to play together. :)
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Re: Vanilla Race Balancing?

Post by thunderchero »

Mr_Sloan wrote: Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:19 pm For ship models i will use UDM, because its compatible with MPR+ and 1080.
no models are compatible with MPR+. those models are completely different

as for adding any model you must also extract some files manually for ship images for higher resolutions (other than 800 x 600) see this topic
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3557#p47791
Mr_Sloan wrote: Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:19 pm I wonder what else i can import from your mod without importing bugs.


I never created patch folder for my multi-player mod but used the old patches from ECM 2.0

best rule of thumb if patch displays red you would get a conflict
for more info on bof patcher see this topic
viewtopic.php?f=126&t=2515#p35394
Mr_Sloan wrote: Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:19 pm e.g. how to give Ferengi free trade routs for minors only?
here is the topic on free trade, but iirc I got some non posted advise from sct to make it possible
viewtopic.php?f=165&t=1057#p15460
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Re: Vanilla Race Balancing?

Post by Mr_Sloan »

thunderchero wrote: Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:56 pm
Mr_Sloan wrote: Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:19 pm For ship models i will use UDM, because its compatible with MPR+ and 1080.
no models are compatible with MPR+. those models are completely different

as for adding any model you must also extract some files manually for ship images for higher resolutions (other than 800 x 600) see this topic
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3557#p47791
Well the MPR+ 0.2.6c can patch both vanilla and UDM. Granted vanill and UDM models look different, UDM seems to be a much higher quality...

I think i used the UDM shippack from the page... overrote 2-3 ships to best and saved it to botf.res and trek.exe

It worked in Multiplayer over GameRanger. i specificly build the new ships and got into combat...

so... it worked. Was anything uncorrect?

I patch everthing to vanilla while i save trek.exe and botf.res before i do it so i can switch from vanilla to myvanillaMod
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Re: Vanilla Race Balancing?

Post by thunderchero »

Mr_Sloan wrote: Wed Apr 01, 2020 3:00 pm
thunderchero wrote: Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:56 pm
Mr_Sloan wrote: Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:19 pm For ship models i will use UDM, because its compatible with MPR+ and 1080.
no models are compatible with MPR+. those models are completely different

as for adding any model you must also extract some files manually for ship images for higher resolutions (other than 800 x 600) see this topic
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3557#p47791
Well the MPR+ 0.2.6c can patch both vanilla and UDM. Granted vanill and UDM models look different, UDM seems to be a much higher quality...

I think i used the UDM shippack from the page... overrote 2-3 ships to best and saved it to botf.res and trek.exe

It worked in Multiplayer over GameRanger. i specificly build the new ships and got into combat...

so... it worked. Was anything uncorrect?

I patch everthing to vanilla while i save trek.exe and botf.res before i do it so i can switch from vanilla to myvanillaMod
from how I read your post you are playing multi player games with vanilla MPR++?

If so yes game will play but the models you added are standard hob file format and will not have the orge lighting and bump textures used by MPR++

The MPR++ models have no ship packs and require a manual extraction/adding of files. It is explained here at bottom of topic
viewtopic.php?f=134&t=3112#p41420
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Re: Vanilla Race Balancing?

Post by Mr_Sloan »

thunderchero wrote: Wed Apr 01, 2020 3:23 pm

from how I read your post you are playing multi player games with vanilla MPR++?

If so yes game will play but the models you added are standard hob file format and will not have the orge lighting and bump textures used by MPR++

The MPR++ models have no ship packs and require a manual extraction/adding of files. It is explained here at bottom of topic
viewtopic.php?f=134&t=3112#p41420
Yes vanilla with MRP++. before that it lagged.

no orge lighting and bumb textures.. no problem. as long as it is stable and i can import more canon ships.

Will have a detailed look at the link tomorrow.
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Re: Vanilla Race Balancing?

Post by thunderchero »

Mr_Sloan wrote: Wed Apr 01, 2020 3:26 pm before that it lagged.
if you are playing multi player and getting a lag you need to read this topic on how to play using DxWnd on gameranger.
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3548#p47689

if you are having good luck fine but I would be afraid of both graphic engines (mpr and MPR++) running in combat
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Re: Vanilla Race Balancing?

Post by Mr_Sloan »

thunderchero wrote: Wed Apr 01, 2020 3:52 pm
Mr_Sloan wrote: Wed Apr 01, 2020 3:26 pm before that it lagged.
if you are playing multi player and getting a lag you need to read this topic on how to play using DxWnd on gameranger.
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3548#p47689

if you are having good luck fine but I would be afraid of both graphic engines (mpr and MPR++) running in combat
You mean you woud not use either of them?

or not use one pc with MPR++ and the other with mpr? Is mpr the vanilla standard?

The warning for using over 127 paletts, is it important? Like 128-1 so when a ship gets an ID over 128 that ship might crash stuff?
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Re: Vanilla Race Balancing?

Post by thunderchero »

thunderchero wrote: Wed Apr 01, 2020 3:52 pm if you are having good luck fine but I would be afraid of both graphic engines (mpr and MPR++) running in combat
disregard this statement, I went back and checked and MPR++ renders both type of file formats original hob and ogre formats. So it is not using original engine when MPR++ is running.

If you are having a mouse lag in multi-player games MPR++ is not the only way to fix this. All you need to do is have the DXwnd app open before and during game play. when gameranger starts a game the open app will hook game.
Mr_Sloan wrote: Thu Apr 02, 2020 6:34 am The warning for using over 127 paletts, is it important? Like 128-1 so when a ship gets an ID over 128 that ship might crash stuff?
yes very important and will cause a crash to desktop if more than 128 (0 - 127) palettes get loaded into memory.

But iirc MPR++ only uses the palettes for t01_a.gif, t02_a.gif, t02_b.gif and some of the space objects (suns, blackholes, wormholes ect)
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Re: Vanilla Race Balancing?

Post by Mr_Sloan »

thunderchero wrote: Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:29 am
But iirc MPR++ only uses the palettes for t01_a.gif, t02_a.gif, t02_b.gif and some of the space objects (suns, blackholes, wormholes ect)
Ok, no >127.

Now i wonder if need MPR++ at all, then...
Do i need it for the 1080 patch?
Do i need it if i merge ships from vanilla and UDM or other shippacks like Peregrine?

Read MPR++ and 1080 is applicable to vanill and UDM but not for most other mods / ship packs...
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Re: Vanilla Race Balancing?

Post by thunderchero »

Mr_Sloan wrote: Thu Apr 02, 2020 9:16 am Ok, no >127.

Now i wonder if need MPR++ at all, then...
Do i need it for the 1080 patch?
Do i need it if i merge ships from vanilla and UDM or other shippacks like Peregrine?

Read MPR++ and 1080 is applicable to vanill and UDM but not for most other mods / ship packs...
when MPR++ was first released it was the only way to correct mouse lag, but DxWnd is used more now since it is easier and covers all mods.

the only reason you would want MPR++ is for nicer ships with lighting and bump textures. but editing is a nightmare.

but as you already noticed the ships in UDM are very nice without lighting and bump textures.

as for the 1080 patch that is up to you and if your monitor can handle it. example my laptop is old and has max of 1366 x 768.

The next version of the All in One will include the 1080 patch and is out for beta testing.
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Re: Vanilla Race Balancing?

Post by Mr_Sloan »

whats the relationship between botf.res and trek.exe?

cause when i open botf.res and replace ships then the trek.exe needs to be updated. which uses the trek.exe from
c:\botf\vanilla as it seems...

the the changed botf.res is the one i open on my pc?

the UDM ships are all phaser8. so i wonder which stable mod to use which has also mostly phaser8 ships as a base...

is every .res file linked to an trek.exe? so that both reference each othe?

Edit: I saw in the FDM mod that
CL1 has 8 Phaser with 150%
and
CL2 has 8 Phaser with 60%

shoudn´t the scale match for ships on the same slot? Or is it enought as long as the phaser amount is the same on the same slot... that that i can randomly change scale?
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