When a battle is just too big...

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Chernabog
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When a battle is just too big...

Post by Chernabog »

Hi all,

Was pondering (I do this a lot) and figured that the most fun battles I have fought in BOTF usualy involve a smaller number of ships. Basically I prefer small scale engagements with high powered ships compared to huge fleet battles with a big mix of ships.

So, I am planning to do some experiments (when I can find the time :? ) limiting the number and type of ships available, perhaps to the extreme of just 3 types of ship for each empire (warship, colony and transport).

I am also going to try and tinker with settings to make sure that engagements actually last a bit longer, i.e. the AI doesn't just run away in the first round, but sticks around and has a go.

Due to the way i am thinking of doing ship upgrades, does anyone know if a ship type can be made obsolete?

e.g. at tech level 1 the feds can build Constitution class cruisers, however when they get to tech level 3 they can now build Excelsior class cruisers, and due to this the option for building Constitution class cruisers is removed. I know you can say its an upgrade, but I wanted to avoid that if possible, so the old ships stay in the game, but cannot be built. Or can ship upgrades be set to be manual?

Thanks in advance,

C.
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Post by Peter1981 »

you only lose a ship from your ship building list when it upgrades to a new ship

constitution->excelsior

so one to one bijective mapping,

However, what if you make the constitution upgrade to a constitution with all the same stats but built by another race (aliens??) and at the same tech level as the new excelsior.
Then you would keep your obsolete fleet's ships, but you'd loose option to build it in your build screen.
Even better the obsolete upgrade should be invisible to you in tech screen.

I haven't tried or tested this myself but it may work. Give it ago and see what happens.

I just wonder if it'll work as the upgrade constitution is really an upgrade for the feds but is a alien tech level.

You may have to analise the shiptech.sst...

Good Luck
this didn't work with ue
Last edited by Peter1981 on Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Spocks-cuddly-tribble
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Re: When a battle is just too big...

Post by Spocks-cuddly-tribble »

Chernabog wrote:does anyone know if a ship type can be made obsolete?

e.g. at tech level 1 the feds can build Constitution class cruisers, however when they get to tech level 3 they can now build Excelsior class cruisers, and due to this the option for building Constitution class cruisers is removed... so the old ships stay in the game, but cannot be built.

I just remembered this was also desired by DCER some time back:
DCER wrote:I wish we knew a way to make majors ship list behave like that. It would allow empires to have lots of different ships without flooding the build menu with them. Also those old ships would suddenly become invaluable as you couldn't build them any more.
viewtopic.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopi ... ight=#6676



Due to one of my unfinished projects (outpost/starbase - for free - upgrade bug), I guess we're lucky this time. :)

Remove: 4526A9 call sub_44A360 (upgrade_ships)

i.e. in trek.exe at 0x51AA9 change E8 B2 7C FF FF to 90 90 90 90 90


But be aware that AI won't scrap/replace obsolete ships i.e. AI fleet buildup will be pretty much screwed up, because those ships "plug" the agendas:
viewtopic.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=707
viewtopic.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=78


Best would be the old way for AI only. At a hasty glance, ds: 5A2B28 appears to be the required player empires bitmask for the task. So (if no sync errors) maybe in future there will be a way. :)
I don't know how many bugs is too many but that point is reached somewhere before however many in BotF is.
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Post by Chernabog »

Hi Peter,

Thanks for the info, gave it a go but unfortuneately when you change the built by list to Aliens (in UE) you loose the ability to say that it is an upgrade to the Constitution class (because it now only gives you the list of alien ships to be upgraded from).

I will have a go at doing this outside of UE to see what happens.

Another good possible way is using the special ships tab, so aything obselete is classed as special and cant be built wthout UP (which I could disable). This seems to be limited to only 5 ships though ... anoying, anyone know if this can be exteneded easily?

I am going to try and make a mod specifically for playing BOTF on a train, using a netbook/laptop ... so a bit of a limited version of BOTF (a BOTF lite as it were) :)

Regards,

C.
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Post by Peter1981 »

@sct thanks for the upgrade routine info are you inplying the shpi list would have to all be reordered as most go:-

scout I
scout II,
Destroyer I
Destroyer II
... et al

to

scout II
scout I
Destroyer II
Destroyer I
...et al

since ai always chooses lowest ship ID most advanced ships at the top ?

@Chernabog what about making the ship builderable by no one I'm guessing for now this has to be hex edited only option but I see no reason not to have a go ... Good luck :)
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Re: When a battle is just too big...

Post by Chernabog »

Spocks-cuddly-tribble wrote:
Remove: 4526A9 call sub_44A360 (upgrade_ships)

i.e. in trek.exe at 0x51AA9 change E8 B2 7C FF FF to 90 90 90 90 90
Thanks sct, thats seems to work just how I want it, will have to see how the AI is going to react to it :)

Regards,

C.
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Post by DCER »

Peter1981 wrote:@sct thanks for the upgrade routine info are you inplying the shpi list would have to all be reordered as most go:-

...

to

scout II
scout I
Destroyer II
Destroyer I
...et al
IIRC this makes upgrades stop working all together. The upgrade of a ship needs to always follow it's predecessor.

Also, SCT your finding is much appreciated, thanks :D
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Post by Peter1981 »

@DCER agree but i was talking about no upgrades so as to force the ai to build the best ship ie scout II isn't and upgrade for scoutI.
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Post by DCER »

Ah, sorry then :D
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Post by Peter1981 »

no worries DCER your busy and I appreciate you responces :) thanks for taking the time.
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About that no ship upgrades fix ...

Post by Chernabog »

Spocks-cuddly-tribble wrote:
Chernabog wrote:does anyone know if a ship type can be made obsolete?

e.g. at tech level 1 the feds can build Constitution class cruisers, however when they get to tech level 3 they can now build Excelsior class cruisers, and due to this the option for building Constitution class cruisers is removed... so the old ships stay in the game, but cannot be built.

I just remembered this was also desired by DCER some time back:
DCER wrote:I wish we knew a way to make majors ship list behave like that. It would allow empires to have lots of different ships without flooding the build menu with them. Also those old ships would suddenly become invaluable as you couldn't build them any more.
viewtopic.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopi ... ight=#6676



Due to one of my unfinished projects (outpost/starbase - for free - upgrade bug), I guess we're lucky this time. :)

Remove: 4526A9 call sub_44A360 (upgrade_ships)

i.e. in trek.exe at 0x51AA9 change E8 B2 7C FF FF to 90 90 90 90 90


But be aware that AI won't scrap/replace obsolete ships i.e. AI fleet buildup will be pretty much screwed up, because those ships "plug" the agendas:
viewtopic.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=707
viewtopic.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=78


Best would be the old way for AI only. At a hasty glance, ds: 5A2B28 appears to be the required player empires bitmask for the task. So (if no sync errors) maybe in future there will be a way. :)
Been doing some more testing with my mod (looking good so far) and this little fix for the no upgrades works perfectly, it doesnt seem to make much difference to the AI either (although ship upgrades in my mod are a little different than normal).

The only issue is with outposts as they still do auto upgrade ... however I think this might not be a bad thing as it kindof makesmore sense, but just so everyone knows :)

Regards,

C.
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Post by Tethys »

Interesting, I would like to see how it works for you, do you have stbof and trek we can look at? :P
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Post by Chernabog »

Tethys wrote:Interesting, I would like to see how it works for you, do you have stbof and trek we can look at? :P
Uploading it to your 4shared account now(in the BOTF folder). probs going to take 20 mins or so (its 96 meg in size).

Have changed the mod around a bit over the last few weeks ... a lot more ships now, buildings still essentialy the same (i.e. no upgrades, special buildings only).

Ships are upgraded from a base value for all stats, which differs for each class. Each tech level confers a bonus of 10% to certain stats (beam power, torp power, hull, shield, shield recharge, maintenance and cost). So a ship requiring tech level 10 to be able to build it, essentialy has double the stats of the same class of ship that only required tech level 1 to be built.

Seems to work ok so far and it means that even old ships are still usefull (handy as you dont get any $ for scrapping themanyway :) ).

I think the differences between the races seem to be fair but only testing will tell.

Remember, none of the ship models are mine, so this is not for public consumption yet (still got to check with a couple of peeps :) ).

Regards,

C.
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Post by Tethys »

Thanks! :D

One suggestion tho, I would go with maybe at (least) 25 - at (most) 50% refund for scrapped ships, since it would be highly unlikely in the case of decommissioned ships to be scrapped and the materials not be used for newer ships (or money for newer ships), but I do see that you want to stress the USE of the older ships, so I respect ur decision.

Cant wait to see how it works, I might decide to do this in GM since the Shiplist is SO HUGE for the Federation lol :P
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Post by Spocks-cuddly-tribble »

Chernabog wrote:The only issue is with outposts as they still do auto upgrade
That's quite easy to prevent. Just remove this statement (same method like above):

Code: Select all

4526D8     E8 B3 7B FF FF   call sub_44A290 (auto_upgrade_station)
I don't know how many bugs is too many but that point is reached somewhere before however many in BotF is.
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