\\\-- Balance of Power (v1.2c released)--///
Moderator: thunderchero
-
thunderchero
- Site Administrator aka Fleet Admiral
- Posts: 7929
- Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2008 2:00 am
- Location: On a three month training mission, in command of the USS Valiant.
Sweet! A new version of Balance of Power is here! Looks like I'm gonna be stuck in front of my computer today.... 
Yeah, I kinda realized this while I was doing some playtesting a couple weeks ago. I really appreciate you responding to my query, though.
I've also learned a little bit -- not a lot, but a little -- about trying to mod stuff using UE, and I now have an at least somewhat-better appreciation for the limitations you and all the other modders here face. Seriously, you guys do some amazing work, and I am humbled by it.
Gowron wrote: Private Farms give +1 morale, but this alone is not enough to increase the morale of a system beyond 100 points. You can test it this way:
Start a game playing as the UFP, at maximum tech level. Power up the Federation Council, and build Private Farms in one of your secondary systems. Don't do anything else (except for pressing "turn done" repeatedly ^^). Now the morale value in that system should increase up to 119 points, while the morale of the other secondary systems should stay at 100.
Yeah, I kinda realized this while I was doing some playtesting a couple weeks ago. I really appreciate you responding to my query, though.
I've also learned a little bit -- not a lot, but a little -- about trying to mod stuff using UE, and I now have an at least somewhat-better appreciation for the limitations you and all the other modders here face. Seriously, you guys do some amazing work, and I am humbled by it.
"Evil is easy, and has infinite forms." -- Pascal
Well,
Another great update to my favorite mod. (Thank you Gowron!)
I'm 80ish turns into my first game, Ferengi, starting at level 3 (techs at 4), medium map under Large BoP. I didn't expect this update to change much, especially at low levels, but I was very wrong.
The big differences so far:
1) The Sheliak! In previous episodes, I park a big ship on their home planet, knowing that the Sheliak raiders would always try to return home. This doesn't work anymore. If I want my free morale bonus for having the Sheliak nearby, I have to follow their ships around. They still don't do anything particularly clever with their ships, but I don't always guess right. Why, one time, the Sheliak even got to attack (feebly) one of my unprotected colony ships.
2) Faster expansion for me. Maybe I just lucked out with star density this time around, but I have 20 more colonies that I would normally expect to have at this point in the game.
3) Weaker AI fleets. Is this because of ship support? My first instinct was to moan about the change to ship support cutting into my precious latinum, but it quickly occurred to me that everyone else is going to like it even worse! A Ferengi might count it as a loss if everyone earns 500 credits a turn, but ought to count it as a win if everyone has to pay 500! I didn't have much in the way of military due to my focus on expansion (I like building; yeah, a human player would make me suffer for it) yet when I came across the Federation around Turn 40, the intel management screen reported my military being larger than theirs. In most games, I have to build to catch up. I recently found the Romulans; their fleet was around the same size as mine rather than larger, as I might have expected. Is the AI having trouble paying for a larger fleet? Does their tendency toward slow expansion harm them even more than usual?
Anyway,
Ken
Another great update to my favorite mod. (Thank you Gowron!)
I'm 80ish turns into my first game, Ferengi, starting at level 3 (techs at 4), medium map under Large BoP. I didn't expect this update to change much, especially at low levels, but I was very wrong.
The big differences so far:
1) The Sheliak! In previous episodes, I park a big ship on their home planet, knowing that the Sheliak raiders would always try to return home. This doesn't work anymore. If I want my free morale bonus for having the Sheliak nearby, I have to follow their ships around. They still don't do anything particularly clever with their ships, but I don't always guess right. Why, one time, the Sheliak even got to attack (feebly) one of my unprotected colony ships.
2) Faster expansion for me. Maybe I just lucked out with star density this time around, but I have 20 more colonies that I would normally expect to have at this point in the game.
3) Weaker AI fleets. Is this because of ship support? My first instinct was to moan about the change to ship support cutting into my precious latinum, but it quickly occurred to me that everyone else is going to like it even worse! A Ferengi might count it as a loss if everyone earns 500 credits a turn, but ought to count it as a win if everyone has to pay 500! I didn't have much in the way of military due to my focus on expansion (I like building; yeah, a human player would make me suffer for it) yet when I came across the Federation around Turn 40, the intel management screen reported my military being larger than theirs. In most games, I have to build to catch up. I recently found the Romulans; their fleet was around the same size as mine rather than larger, as I might have expected. Is the AI having trouble paying for a larger fleet? Does their tendency toward slow expansion harm them even more than usual?
Anyway,
Ken
-
goodone
- Lieutenant-Junior Grade
- Posts: 50
- Joined: Fri May 29, 2009 2:00 am
- Location: Novi Sad, Vojvodina, Serbia, Europe
- Contact:
i think the main cause for this is the large map itself:Ovarwa wrote:3) Weaker AI fleets. Is this because of ship support? My first instinct was to moan about the change to ship support cutting into my precious latinum, but it quickly occurred to me that everyone else is going to like it even worse! A Ferengi might count it as a loss if everyone earns 500 credits a turn, but ought to count it as a win if everyone has to pay 500! I didn't have much in the way of military due to my focus on expansion (I like building; yeah, a human player would make me suffer for it) yet when I came across the Federation around Turn 40, the intel management screen reported my military being larger than theirs. In most games, I have to build to catch up. I recently found the Romulans; their fleet was around the same size as mine rather than larger, as I might have expected. Is the AI having trouble paying for a larger fleet? Does their tendency toward slow expansion harm them even more than usual?
1. ais probably haven't meet anyone; they do not build large fleets until they have somebody to push around,
2. ais are spending most of the resources on expanding just like human player [but luckily they do it less aggressively, or large maps would be just unplayable],
these conclusions i am basing on my own mp experience well past 300 turns.
so:
1. ais' fleets are large enough if u meet them l8r [medium large map, almost 300turns, feds have quite a few ships, at least ten, but don't know anyone],
2. they build up fast after they meet an opponent [50 turns l8r, feds are building fleets and massing them on my borders, even if we are yet into 75years of non-aggression pact].
so, imo, u should play a few hundreds turns more, and get back with results, so gowron can use ur input. i'll get back with mine, when this mp session is over [may take some time
].Hi,
As for your other points, I find them either based upon your incorrect assumption that I am comparing games on maps of different sizes, or completely alien to my own experience.
(That is, I find that the AI is very sluggish when it comes to expansion, that if large maps are unplayable it is because the AI expands far too slowly to exploit the territory available to it, that when I meet AIs as their first contact, they have spent lots of money on military ships at the expense of their colonization efforts even though they have no one to push around.... indeed, my experience and conclusions differ from yours in every respect.
(As for playing another few hundred turns: I am not sure I am going to play this one out for another twenty. My economy, science, intel, industry have only barely entered what I see as the "middle phase" of rapidly accelerating growth, with my first colonies acquiring trade routes and growth faster than 1 pop per turn and my starting worlds converted to industry 4, yet I have more than three times as many systems as the Romulans and Feds combined (and am still building at least one colony ship per turn), have slightly more military than the Romulans and twice the military of the Feds, am building a Marauder on most turns, have sufficient intel to not worry about Romulan sabotage, expect my intel production to at least double within the next 20 turns, have better research than either, morale in most systems at Fanatic, etc.)
Anyway,
Ken
No. I am comparing games of the same size.goodone wrote:i think the main cause for this is the large map itself:Ovarwa wrote:3) Weaker AI fleets. Is this because of ship support?.....In most games, I have to build to catch up. I recently found the Romulans; their fleet was around the same size as mine rather than larger, as I might have expected. Is the AI having trouble paying for a larger fleet? Does their tendency toward slow expansion harm them even more than usual?
As for your other points, I find them either based upon your incorrect assumption that I am comparing games on maps of different sizes, or completely alien to my own experience.
(That is, I find that the AI is very sluggish when it comes to expansion, that if large maps are unplayable it is because the AI expands far too slowly to exploit the territory available to it, that when I meet AIs as their first contact, they have spent lots of money on military ships at the expense of their colonization efforts even though they have no one to push around.... indeed, my experience and conclusions differ from yours in every respect.
(As for playing another few hundred turns: I am not sure I am going to play this one out for another twenty. My economy, science, intel, industry have only barely entered what I see as the "middle phase" of rapidly accelerating growth, with my first colonies acquiring trade routes and growth faster than 1 pop per turn and my starting worlds converted to industry 4, yet I have more than three times as many systems as the Romulans and Feds combined (and am still building at least one colony ship per turn), have slightly more military than the Romulans and twice the military of the Feds, am building a Marauder on most turns, have sufficient intel to not worry about Romulan sabotage, expect my intel production to at least double within the next 20 turns, have better research than either, morale in most systems at Fanatic, etc.)
Anyway,
Ken
-
goodone
- Lieutenant-Junior Grade
- Posts: 50
- Joined: Fri May 29, 2009 2:00 am
- Location: Novi Sad, Vojvodina, Serbia, Europe
- Contact:
we sure have different experiences.
so, since we are both playing medium large map, what 1st comes to mind is the map itself.
i have been trying a few different maps of the same size/type, and i came to conclusion that they are pretty different among themselves. various map attributes get placed pretty unevenly, even on irregular galaxy [which should be, more or less, randomized]: minors/dilithium only on one side, pulsars on one side of the galaxy and nebulas on the other, huge sectors with no stars what-so-ever, other stuff missing here but showing there.
so, it may be explained by the map generator, making pretty different maps on every pass. so, the main flaw is, imo, the imperfect map generator, whose flaws show up more in large maps, surely affecting ai. u should check what are ai's systems like, how much developed, are there any randoms flying around and such... even a small issue can affect ai behavior, and those are more frequent in large maps.
on the other hand, bop's ai is particularly slow in expansion [a nus-effect of general range shortening; but not a completely bad effect, since it tends to make game more balanced and bit slower]. this can also behave as a flaw in large maps, imo.
also, i contacted an ai only after almost 300 turns. that may also explain our different experiences. i will see how my ai's gonna behave till the end of this session, and report back eventually.
was any of ur ai in contact with any other hostile minor/major/random?
so, since we are both playing medium large map, what 1st comes to mind is the map itself.
i have been trying a few different maps of the same size/type, and i came to conclusion that they are pretty different among themselves. various map attributes get placed pretty unevenly, even on irregular galaxy [which should be, more or less, randomized]: minors/dilithium only on one side, pulsars on one side of the galaxy and nebulas on the other, huge sectors with no stars what-so-ever, other stuff missing here but showing there.
so, it may be explained by the map generator, making pretty different maps on every pass. so, the main flaw is, imo, the imperfect map generator, whose flaws show up more in large maps, surely affecting ai. u should check what are ai's systems like, how much developed, are there any randoms flying around and such... even a small issue can affect ai behavior, and those are more frequent in large maps.
on the other hand, bop's ai is particularly slow in expansion [a nus-effect of general range shortening; but not a completely bad effect, since it tends to make game more balanced and bit slower]. this can also behave as a flaw in large maps, imo.
also, i contacted an ai only after almost 300 turns. that may also explain our different experiences. i will see how my ai's gonna behave till the end of this session, and report back eventually.
was any of ur ai in contact with any other hostile minor/major/random?
Hi,
Or maybe you start with all techs at 1?
Anyway,
Ken
That's possible. But I suspect it is more about vastly different playing styles. I tend to expand as rapidly as I can, I am almost always in contact with at least one AI by turn 50 and am not surprised if I've met them all by turn 100. So when you start talking about 300 turns, I boggle. I have never played that long!goodone wrote:we sure have different experiences.
so, since we are both playing medium large map, what 1st comes to mind is the map itself.
Or maybe you start with all techs at 1?
Though I see differences, my experience differs here, and I chalk up the weirdnesses I see to "well, if there were never an unexpected region of the map, among so many maps with so many sectors, something would be broken."i have been trying a few different maps of the same size/type, and i came to conclusion that they are pretty different among themselves. various map attributes get placed pretty unevenly, even on irregular galaxy [which should be, more or less, randomized]: minors/dilithium only on one side, pulsars on one side of the galaxy and nebulas on the other, huge sectors with no stars what-so-ever, other stuff missing here but showing there.
On the map in question, the AIs had clear and obvious opportunities for expansion. I cannot blame the map.any randoms flying around and such... even a small issue can affect ai behavior, and those are more frequent in large maps.
I consider it a completely bad effect, and the BoP AI not generally worse at expansion than others I've seen. The game is less balanced because of this, not more. Human players really don't need another advantage!on the other hand, bop's ai is particularly slow in expansion [a nus-effect of general range shortening; but not a completely bad effect, since it tends to make game more balanced and bit slower]. this can also behave as a flaw in large maps, imo.
And this completely boggles me. I like to build and expand, am quite happy to postpone meeting AIs, but I quickly run into them due to my rapid colonization program. But if I were to pursue a different strategy, I'd want to find an AI to pummel ASAP. What are you *doing* for 300 turns?
also, i contacted an ai only after almost 300 turns. that may also explain our different experiences. i will see how my ai's gonna behave till the end of this session, and report back eventually.
Anyway,
Ken
-
KrazeeXXL
- BORG Trouble Maker
- Posts: 2323
- Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 3:00 am
- Location: the 36th Chamber
captaindusk and myself continued our game last night
He still as fed and me as kling. Some things I wanted to mention.
about the cloak:
I just checked via UE that both Kling and Rom ships use cloak I. As it seems are cloak I,II and III some kind of slots (imo).
So me as cloaked kling wasn't able to attack Rom ships which were ofc cloaked, too. AFAIR was the cloak of two cloaked fleets canceled by each others (vanilla). There the Klings also had cloak I but the Roms cloak II which implicated that the Roms use some kind of "better" cloak (as they have invented it in ST history).
With both Roms and Klings on cloak I slot the only thing I was able to do was to set my ships to evade. The Rom AI was able to attack in its common way though. I remember a big battle where also a frigate of cd was involved. We reloaded 3 times. At first I changed 3DFX back to SOFTWARE which led to no effect at all. 3 times, 3 crashes so cd sent his frigate to another sector and I was able to do this battle in which I set my fleet to evade. Perhaps it had worked when cd also had set his frigate to evade.
some funny things:
We know the fergs are some greedy guys with lots of latinum but I never seen this b4:
After this large amount of credits I had to check the AI about it's money: As a good acting Ferengi it still had most of its Latinum left:
On this screenshot you can see the impact on the statistic overview 2 times. On the first peak its the 354k the ferg gave me. Then you can see another peak by the feds. There the ferg gave ca. 300k+ credits to captaindusk to convince him to declare war on the cards, too.
The AI is pretty good with their technologically advances. Ferg got Marauder IV for a long time, the card got battleship 1. As we checked the AI we seen lots of systems producing trade goods. Regardless which AI. Card had the fewest credits with ~28k as we checked, Rom had something round 88k (both of them are allied).
I had to play this game a bit different as I feared the intel attacks of the card as I'am his main target from the beginning. So sometimes he came through my defences even as I set 7k set to internal security. Now as I got more then 10k this attacks are finally history.
It's not much what the card got here on his intel but it was enough to annoy me over a long period of time:
They slowed me down for a long time. Moral minus through sabotage detained me a long time from invasions as I don't wanted to risk rebellions. But then I seen the puppet government with +2 on moral. I also got Bajor so...
Either way I'm going to kick some card's butt this night
edit: but warzone is dowm atm
He still as fed and me as kling. Some things I wanted to mention.
about the cloak:
I just checked via UE that both Kling and Rom ships use cloak I. As it seems are cloak I,II and III some kind of slots (imo).
So me as cloaked kling wasn't able to attack Rom ships which were ofc cloaked, too. AFAIR was the cloak of two cloaked fleets canceled by each others (vanilla). There the Klings also had cloak I but the Roms cloak II which implicated that the Roms use some kind of "better" cloak (as they have invented it in ST history).
With both Roms and Klings on cloak I slot the only thing I was able to do was to set my ships to evade. The Rom AI was able to attack in its common way though. I remember a big battle where also a frigate of cd was involved. We reloaded 3 times. At first I changed 3DFX back to SOFTWARE which led to no effect at all. 3 times, 3 crashes so cd sent his frigate to another sector and I was able to do this battle in which I set my fleet to evade. Perhaps it had worked when cd also had set his frigate to evade.
some funny things:
We know the fergs are some greedy guys with lots of latinum but I never seen this b4:
After this large amount of credits I had to check the AI about it's money: As a good acting Ferengi it still had most of its Latinum left:
On this screenshot you can see the impact on the statistic overview 2 times. On the first peak its the 354k the ferg gave me. Then you can see another peak by the feds. There the ferg gave ca. 300k+ credits to captaindusk to convince him to declare war on the cards, too.
The AI is pretty good with their technologically advances. Ferg got Marauder IV for a long time, the card got battleship 1. As we checked the AI we seen lots of systems producing trade goods. Regardless which AI. Card had the fewest credits with ~28k as we checked, Rom had something round 88k (both of them are allied).
I had to play this game a bit different as I feared the intel attacks of the card as I'am his main target from the beginning. So sometimes he came through my defences even as I set 7k set to internal security. Now as I got more then 10k this attacks are finally history.
It's not much what the card got here on his intel but it was enough to annoy me over a long period of time:
They slowed me down for a long time. Moral minus through sabotage detained me a long time from invasions as I don't wanted to risk rebellions. But then I seen the puppet government with +2 on moral. I also got Bajor so...
Either way I'm going to kick some card's butt this night
edit: but warzone is dowm atm
I've tried starting with techs at 1, have never enjoyed it, but that was a long time ago. Maybe I should try again. What I like about tech 4 is that the different races already feel very different, yet still have a lot of development yet to do. What I don't like about tech 1 is that even with Gowron's mods, it is possible around turn 100 to gain a good minor that is almost as good as my home world. Maybe better. Even at Tech 4, I expect to acquire my first minor race within 20 turns and get a system better than any of the colonies I have been developing, and possibly better than my extra starting systems.goodone wrote:always. i simply like playing the entire game from top to bottom. but, that may also account for our different experiences.Ovarwa wrote:Or maybe you start with all techs at 1?
we'll see what gowron thinks...
In any case, all of my comments comparing this version of BoP with previous BoP versions refer to the same size map and same starting tech level.
Anyway,
Ken
Hi guys, I downloaded this mod when it was 1.2b but that was ages ago. I recently wanted to play a 4x TBS and was bemoaning the fact there aren't that many and I remembered I had downloaded BOTF and this mod, and realised it had been upgraded to 1.2c. I haven't had a chance to play a proper game of 1.2c, but have of 1.2b.
Anyway I'm trying to get my friend interested in playing a game of it online, and the weird thing is this game is really unstable. Has anyone noticed that, for either MP or single play? It got so ridiculous that we couldn't play the game because there would reliably be a crash (mostly on his end, but I crashed once myself) every say dozen turns.
Contrast this with my single player 1.2b experience, where the longest I went was well over 200 turns before the game finally crashed (this was amazingly addictive game, I was up all night and all morning playing it and I think the game spontaneously developed sentience and went 'lol no more gaming for you son'). Single play seems far more stable. On the other hand, I haven't had a chance to play 1.2c single yet.
I'm shattered, I really want to play BoP with my mate because seriously, how many 4x TBS games set in space are there? It kills me Microprose is no longer around. I want MoO 4 or BotF 2 damnit.
PS Excellent mod I guess I should say that as well lol.
Anyway I'm trying to get my friend interested in playing a game of it online, and the weird thing is this game is really unstable. Has anyone noticed that, for either MP or single play? It got so ridiculous that we couldn't play the game because there would reliably be a crash (mostly on his end, but I crashed once myself) every say dozen turns.
Contrast this with my single player 1.2b experience, where the longest I went was well over 200 turns before the game finally crashed (this was amazingly addictive game, I was up all night and all morning playing it and I think the game spontaneously developed sentience and went 'lol no more gaming for you son'). Single play seems far more stable. On the other hand, I haven't had a chance to play 1.2c single yet.
I'm shattered, I really want to play BoP with my mate because seriously, how many 4x TBS games set in space are there? It kills me Microprose is no longer around. I want MoO 4 or BotF 2 damnit.
PS Excellent mod I guess I should say that as well lol.
Goodone,
I played 100 turns as Ferengi, level 1, LBoP medium elliptical.
I have colonized 21 systems, have yet to meet an AI, but I suspect the game is already won. Why? Because even though minor growth has been slowed down, an awesome bit of work by Gowron, three of my neighbors (Bolians, Mizarians and Betazoids) have already reached full population and are ready to be acquired. Also, my economy runs more than 1000cr surplus per turn, and getting better every turn, which puts me in a position of being able to acquire them.
The overwhelming importance of minors is why I tend to avoid level 1.
*considers* I have noticed that minors have many more orbital batteries than in the past, which plays heavily in favor of the Ferengi and the Federation.
*considers again* An interesting change might be to limit what minors build for themselves; were their systems limited to, say 200 pop and their structures restricted to a level or two behind the average tech... well, it might break everything.
I played 100 turns as Ferengi, level 1, LBoP medium elliptical.
I have colonized 21 systems, have yet to meet an AI, but I suspect the game is already won. Why? Because even though minor growth has been slowed down, an awesome bit of work by Gowron, three of my neighbors (Bolians, Mizarians and Betazoids) have already reached full population and are ready to be acquired. Also, my economy runs more than 1000cr surplus per turn, and getting better every turn, which puts me in a position of being able to acquire them.
The overwhelming importance of minors is why I tend to avoid level 1.
*considers* I have noticed that minors have many more orbital batteries than in the past, which plays heavily in favor of the Ferengi and the Federation.
*considers again* An interesting change might be to limit what minors build for themselves; were their systems limited to, say 200 pop and their structures restricted to a level or two behind the average tech... well, it might break everything.
-
goodone
- Lieutenant-Junior Grade
- Posts: 50
- Joined: Fri May 29, 2009 2:00 am
- Location: Novi Sad, Vojvodina, Serbia, Europe
- Contact:
i suggest u continue playing. not everything is so easy as it seems...Ovarwa wrote:I played 100 turns as Ferengi, level 1, LBoP medium elliptical.
I have colonized 21 systems, have yet to meet an AI, but I suspect the game is already won.
ur 21 systems r surely badly protected, since u rush ur expansion on behalf of security. and an ai would simply use that to their advantage.
even hostile minors w/ ships could destroy a system or two that way [but, ofc, i imagine u r not allowing such thing to happen].
anyway, my recommendation stays.
those minors r far from fully developed. they still have a long way to go [another 150turns at least], until they get higher building lvls. if u take them so early in the game, they'll be developed the same u r [but with full pop, ofc; not so much an advantage, since u would need to protect them also].Ovarwa wrote:Why? Because even though minor growth has been slowed down, an awesome bit of work by Gowron, three of my neighbors (Bolians, Mizarians and Betazoids) have already reached full population and are ready to be acquired.
botf always had an unstable mp experience. the only thing u can do is to try to limit it to some degree. few of my suggestions:Stofsk wrote:I'm trying to get my friend interested in playing a game of it online, and the weird thing is this game is really unstable. Has anyone noticed that, for either MP or single play?
1. host player should always finish the turn last, after every other player ends turn [it is possible to do it the other way around also, with somewhat lesser stability],
2. there should be intermediary routers and other nat stuff between players as few as possible,
3. botf network layer surely has a bug somewhere; unfortunately there is little we can do about it, but u can try to stress it's network layer as little as possible [by observing less network based activity from players, turning off any net-based programs],
4. recheck if all port-forwarding [if any are required by urs network setup] are correct and functional, from time to time [botf does upnp, but since it includes directplay too, there are many places it can break].
as i am playing mostly mp, i can say that my personal experience is decently playable, depending upon session's complexity, turn and overall game length. the more the turns last, crashes are more frequent.