Vorcha & Galaxy

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Vorcha & Galaxy

Post by geon »

In response to Dr Breen’s request for a Vorcha/Galaxy comparison in my D’deridex/Galaxy article,
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2336

Please enjoy the following.

As per the previous article, we’ll begin with the vanilla BOTF stats for these two ship types.

Galaxy
Range – Medium, Speed – 1, Hull – 208, Shields – 600, Beam 3 x phaser @ 35, Torp 2 x Photon @ 52 Full Volley - 209

Vorcha
Range – Short, Speed – 1, Hull – 100, Shields – 340, Disruptors x 6 @ 36, Torp 2 x Ion @ 60 Full Volley – 336

Vorcha II
Range –Medium, Speed – 2, Hull – 115, Shields – 480, Disruptors x 6 @ 60, Torp 3 x Ion @ 84 Full Volley – 612

In the vanilla game (with equal crew levels) the Galaxy’s defensive strength balances the Vorcha I’s offensive superiority, giving a rough parity between the two. Both have identical speed, with the Galaxy having a greater range.

The Vorcha II’ improves in defence with regard to the Galaxy but has nearly three times more firepower, giving an advantage in combat. The Vorcha II also matches range with the Galaxy and is now faster.

Ex Astris Scientia gives the stats for the ships as follows.

Galaxy – Length 642m Speed 9.2 (cruise).
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/schem ... ships1.htm

Vorcha – Length 481m Speed – none given
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/schem ... _ships.htm

Does all this match what we see in the series? Let’s find out.

For this exercise, I’ll use the reworked Galaxy stats from the previous article as our benchmark.

Range – Medium,
Speed – 3
Hull – 208,
Shields – 600,
Beam 3 x phaser @ 55
Torp 2 x Photon @ 52
Full Volley - 269
(But please use your own stats if you prefer and alter the results accordingly)

The big problem with making this analysis is that no direct confrontation has ever occurred (to my knowledge) between these two ships on screen. So we’ll have to resort to indirect comparisons.

Both have been in combat with K’vort class battlecruisers – the Galaxy in TNG ‘Yesterday’s Enterprise’ and the Vorcha in TNG ‘Redemption’

Let’s examine these encounters.

First, TNG ‘Redemption’ where Gowron’s Vorcha is surprised by two K’vorts. It’s unclear whether the Vorcha was initially shielded or not, though being in orbit around the homeworld and not expecting any trouble leads me to suspect minimal or no shields.

GOWRON: Status!
KLINGON: Aft shields down.
HELMSMAN: Warp coils damaged.
[Bridge]
PICARD: Red alert.
DATA: A second ship has joined the attack on the Bortas.
PICARD: It's begun.
[Gowron's Bridge]
GOWRON: Send an emergency signal to any loyal ships!
HELMSMAN: Impulse engines not responding!
(there's an explosion. Worf takes the Klingon's station)
GOWRON: Engage emergency override!
WORF: Override engaged. Disruptors still not responding.
[Bridge]
DATA: The Bortas has lost her port shields, sir. It is unlikely they will withstand another hit at that quarter. Their primary life support has failed, sir.
RIKER: The Bortas has put out a general distress call.

WORF: They're dropping their shields.
GOWRON: BaH!
(KaBOOM)

KLINGON: Port shields are still down.
WORF: Firing on second target.
KLINGON: They were able to raise the shields in time. Minor damage only.
(the ship fires on the Bortas)
WORF: Disruptors offline.
GOWRON: All power to shields.
KLINGON: Shields failing
http://www.chakoteya.net/NextGen/200.htm

The initial attack by the first K’vort severely damages aft shields and warp coils. Further disruptor and torpedo attacks by the two BOP’s damages disruptors and buckles the port shields. One unshielded BOP is destroyed outright by a disruptor cannon blast, but the same weapon causes only minimal damage to a shielded K’vort (which says a lot for the quality of K’vort shields and lack of the same for their hulls).

Now compare this to Enterprise’s duel with three K’vorts.

PICARD: Attention all hands. As you know, we could outrun the Klingon vessels, but we must protect the Enterprise-C until she enters the temporal rift. And we must succeed. Let's make sure history never forgets the name Enterprise. Picard out.
(The Klingons fire their disruptors)
PICARD: Mister Data?
DATA: Shields are holding, sir.
RIKER: Photon torpedoes ready.
PICARD: Dispersal pattern, sierra. And fire!
DATA: One enemy target hit, sir. Moderate damage to their forward shields. Our shields are still holding. Minor damage to secondary hull.
WESLEY: Coming to two one seven mark one one five. Increasing to two thirds impulse.
(Enterprise D exchanges fire with the Klingons)
RIKER: Damage control teams, deck fourteen.
LAFORGE: Engineering to bridge. Starboard power coupling is down. Containment field generator three is damaged. Attempting to bypass.
PICARD: Hold course, Mister Crusher. Continual fire, all phasers.
(KaBoom!)
DATA: One enemy target destroyed, sir.
DATA: Shields buckling, Captain. They will not
LAFORGE [OC]: La Forge to Bridge.
LAFORGE: I can't hold the antimatter containment fields. Initiating emergency shutdown!
(Something else goes bang)
LAFORGE: Coolant leak! Bridge, we have a coolant leak in the engine core! I can't shut it down. I estimate two minutes to a warp core breach!
(Crew start to evacuate Engineering)
LAFORGE: Go! Go! Go!
PICARD: How long until the Enterprise-C enters the rift?
DATA: Fifty two seconds, sir.
PICARD: All remaining power to the defence systems.
DATA: Power couplings severed in forward phaser banks. Attempting to bypass. Controls not responding.
(Riker gets killed)
KLINGON [OC]: Federation ship Enterprise. Surrender and prepare to be boarded.
PICARD: That will be the day.
http://www.chakoteya.net/NextGen/163.htm

Both ships were on the point of destruction in these two actions. At roughly the same length of engagement, it took three K’vorts to wear down the Galaxy, but only two were needed for the Vorcha. So in shielding at least, the Galaxy is superior (by at least a third), which is no surprise given Federation superiority in this field. So if our Galaxy shielding is 600, the Vorcha’s should be at least 400. Given that in the initial attack on the Vorcha its shields may have been down, this value could be greater.

The Galaxy’s hull also took similar amounts of damage from three K’vorts as the Vorcha did from two, so again hull stats will be greater (again by at least a third). Again, no surprise given the Galaxy is a larger ship. So if our Galaxy hull is at 208, the Vorcha should be at least 140.

Range is difficult to tie down. The Galaxy has travelled from one end of the Federation to the other in the Next Generation, so has at least Medium range (to distinguish it from the long range Intrepid which travelled the length of a whole quadrant). We don’t have exact details on the Vorcha’s range. While Vorchas were in the fleet that travelled the long way from Klingon space to DS9 and then Cardassia in TNG ‘Way Of The Warrior’ which might indicate a medium range at least, other ships like K’tingas and BOP’s were also present. So either all these types have at least medium range or the fleet travelled very slowly to reach DS9.

So we could stay with the short range or go with medium.

We are on a little firmer ground with regard to speed. Being the most advanced Federation ship when it first appeared, the Galaxy would naturally have a high speed rating. If the Sovereigns and Intrepids are the current fastest ships in the fleet, the Galaxy’s must be just below them. So this will depend on what top speed rating you give your Federation ships. If 4 is your top, then the Galaxy gets a 3. If 3 (with the Borg getting a 4), then the Galaxy gets a 2. I’m betting a Sovereign or Intrepid can keep pace with a cube, so we’ll go with the 3.

Weapon ratings are our next item. I don’t think we ever get to see a Vorcha launch its torpedoes, so we have to speculate as to their effectiveness. But we do have onscreen evidence for its beam weapons. Both the Vorcha’s disruptor cannon in TNG ‘Redemption’ and the Galaxy’s photon torpedoes in TNG ‘Yesterday’s Enterprise’, cause minor damage to shielded K’vorts. The photons cause ‘moderate damage to forward shield’ to one K’vort, but it’s not clear how many torps struck this ship.

One disruptor bolt from the Vorcha causes ‘minor damage’ but this is not elaborated on. So we can speculate that the Vorcha’s disruptor is at least as good as the Galaxy’s photon. Both the disruptor and the Galaxy’s phaser destroyed an unshielded K’vort outright (the Galaxy in fact punching through the weakened shields and then hitting the hull, which then caused the explosion. But whether the power of the beam caused the explosion or luckily hitting a vulnerable spot is open to debate).

Our Galaxy’s phasers are rated 55, the torps 52. If one torp struck the shielded K’vort causing minor damage roughly equivalent to the disruptor bolt under the same circumstances, then the Klingon weapon should be at least 52. But if two torps caused this damage, the disruptor cannon may be as high as 104. Looking at the torpedo spread hitting the BOP’s it does look like more than one torp hit the centre K’vort.

So we’ll go with the 104 figure. I assume the Vorcha also has normal disruptors as well as these cannons, but since in BOTF currently a ship can only have one type of beam weapon on its hull, the 104 figure will have to count for all the beams. To simulate the presence of the other lower grade disruptors we’ll lower the number of cannons. More on this later.
All this also gives us some idea of the K’vort stats. If at least one phaser (54) can destroy the hull, it must be rated at least a 53. The shields, on the other hand, take only ‘minor’ damage from 2 photons or one disruptor cannon, so 300 at least.

Kvort – Shield 300 Hull 53. – very good shielding but fragile hull, compensated by high manoeuvrability.

One later episode in DS9, ‘Way Of The Warrior’ has a Vorcha up against the Defiant.

WORF: Another Klingon ship has just decloaked. It's a Vor'cha class attack cruiser
DAX: Benjamin, it's going to take at least two minutes to evacuate Dukat's ship. Even with the Defiant's new armour, I don't think we can last that long with our shields down.
DAX: You were right, Mister Worf. The modulated tractor beam's deflecting some of the Klingons' disruptor fire.
WORF: Disruptor's effectiveness at fifty percent.
SISKO: Well done, Mister Worf. Lower shields. Sisko to transporter bay. Begin emergency transports.
CREWWOMAN [OC]: Transports underway.
(Big Bang.)
DAX: The ablative armour is holding.
WORF: Klingon ships are closing. Armour on the port side is losing integrity.
WORF: The Klingons have closed to point-blank range.
(Boom!)
DAX: Ablative armour has failed. We've got plasma leaks on decks two, three and five, and we've lost our aft torpedo launchers.
http://www.chakoteya.net/DS9/473.htm

This Vorcha class has a green disruptor beam firing from where the Bortas’s disruptor bolt emerged. So we can speculate that it is a newer Vorcha model (our Vorcha II). Since it is outside the scope of this article to go into the Defiant’s stats, I’ll just say that even at half strength (thanks to Worf’s tractor beam trick) this beam was causing serious damage to the Defiant’s ablative armour. So we can assume an improvement on the earlier disruptor cannon.

But what this episode illustrates is this Vorcha’s speed and manoeuvrability. The ship had no trouble keeping up with a manoeuvring Defiant (itself the most agile Federation type – on par with a BOP). If we assume the earlier Vorcha was also as nimble, then the Vorcha is clearly superior to a Galaxy in terms of manoeuvrability.

Again, in terms of speed this Vorcha could only keep pace with the Defiant and could not overtake it. Since the Defiant is slower than a Galaxy, we’ll give it a speed of 2. The Vorcha II, being equivalent to this, thus also gets a 2 speed rating. If the earlier Vorcha (like the Bortas) is slower than the newer model, then their speed becomes a 1.

So, putting all the above together, what do we get??

Here again are our baseline Galaxy stats:

Range – Medium, Speed – 3, Hull – 208, Shields – 600, Beam 3 x phaser @ 55
Torp 2 x Photon @ 52 Full Volley – 269

Our new preliminary Vorcha I stats are:

Range – Medium, Speed – 1, Hull – 140, Shields – 400, Beam 6 x disruptor @ 104
Torp 2 x Ion Torp @ 52* Full Volley – 728

* since we don’t know about these torps, we’ll leave the vanilla stats in for now.

This Vorcha’s firepower is nearly three times that of the Galaxy, which seems too high. Bearing in mind what I previously said about lowering the cannon numbers to reflect the presence of lesser disruptors on this ship, let’s remove 2 disruptors.

We now have Vorcha I stats as follows:

Range – Medium, Speed – 1, Hull – 140, Shields – 400, Beam 4 x disruptor @ 104
Torp 2 x Ion Torp @ 52* Full Volley – 520

(The Vorcha II will have speed 2, and likely better stats for all the remaining values. Just how much better will be up to the modder).

In comparison to the Galaxy, the Vorcha I has greater firepower and manoeuvrability. The Galaxy has greater shield, hull strength and speed.

It’s a good match.
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Re: Vorcha & Galaxy

Post by Martok »

Quick (minor) nitpick: The Galaxy is only Short-range in vanilla BOTF, not Medium-range.
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Re: Vorcha & Galaxy

Post by geon »

Hi Martok,

I was using the vanilla stats from this site

http://members.aon.at/zelli/bhships.htm

They have the Galaxy range as medium and the speed as short. Are they wrong?
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Re: Vorcha & Galaxy

Post by Martok »

Yes, they're wrong. I double-checked the stats in-game before I posted. The Galaxy-class is indeed a Short-range vessel in vanilla BOTF.
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Re: Vorcha & Galaxy

Post by geon »

Thanks Martok, for bringing that to my attention. It doesn't really affect the article, but I like to try to be as accurate as possible in my articles, so I will be TRIPLE checking my sources from now on!
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Re: Vorcha & Galaxy

Post by Spocks-cuddly-tribble »

You're just using the wrong link i.e. the building mod ship stats (entirely different from vanilla BotF).

Here are BotF 1.0.2 stats:
http://members.aon.at/zelli/game.htm

EDIT: Same issue in some of you other post.

Also it would be nice to create a shiplist.sst & shiptech.sst files based on your observations. :wink:
I don't know how many bugs is too many but that point is reached somewhere before however many in BotF is.
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Re: Vorcha & Galaxy

Post by geon »

Thanks Spocks Cuddly Tribble,

Next time I'll just go directly to the game for my stats!

A shiplist and shiptech....hmmm, a lot of work but hey, the holidays are upon us. I was planning on doing some canon BOTF mods in the New Year based on the onscreen observations, once I mastered the basics of modding, and certain features like multiple beam colours (which has been addressed) and certain ship models becoming available.

My (very) ambitious mod list is currently as follows:

Canon BOTF TNG era Ver A - Federation, Klingon, Romulan, Ferengi, Cardassian
Canon BOTF TNG era Ver B - Federation, Klingon, Romulan, Dominion, Borg

Canon BOTF Enterprise Era Ver A - Earth, Vulcan, Suliban, Andorian, Klingon
Canon BOTF Enterprise Era Ver B - Earth, Vulcan, Andorian, Klingon, Xindi

Canon BOTF TOS Era - Federation, Klingon, Romulan, and still deciding on the other 2 majors

Hopefully, there will be time to at least begin some of these.
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Re: Vorcha & Galaxy

Post by geon »

Here are the vanilla BOTF stats I SHOULD have been using in my two articles;

Vorcha I

Galaxy
Range – Short, Speed – 1, Hull – 208, Shields – 600, Beam 9 x phaser @ 30, Torp 7 x Photon @ 52 Full Volley - 634

Galaxy II
Range – Medium, Speed – 1, Hull – 222, Shields – 660, Beam 11 x phaser @ 40, Torp 2 x Quantum @ 68 Full Volley - 209

Vorcha
Range – Medium, Speed – 1, Hull – 175, Shields – 480, Disruptors x 22 @ 40, Torp 10 x Ion @ 68 Full Volley – 1560

Vorcha II
Range –Medium, Speed – 2, Hull – 195, Shields – 560, Disruptors x 28 @ 60, Torp 12 x Ion @ 100 Full Volley – 2880

D'deridex I

Range –Short, Speed – 1, Hull – 175, Shields – 540, Disruptors x 11 @ 40, Torp 10 x Plasma @ 80 Full Volley – 1240

Wow! I hadn't realised just how unbalanced the original vanilla game was. The Vorcha's firepower is absolutely insane. The building mod I mistakenly used is a hell of a lot more balanced than the original game!

The reworked values for the building mod data still seem to be about right, so I'll leave them as is.
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Re: Vorcha & Galaxy

Post by Dr_Breen »

Hehe it truly is insane. a fleet of vorcha II's could blow away nearly everything in vanilla. however they lost all the 1 on 1 combats due to weak shielding, i remember them being destroyed before they could fire all their guns.

btw you made a mistake at the galaxy II: they have 8 quantums and a full volley of 984.

Thanks for the post.

I had the same idea as sct, this community still lacks a "perfect shiplist" where everything matches. i started doing one in 2004 or 5, way before afc figured out how to add ships and stuff. i calculated for hours and at the end i had it all put together. however i don't have it anymore (to many year's, mods, Windows rebuilds and new PC's).

After all i thinks it's not such a big effort to create one:

We need a Base where we can start of, best choice is the Galaxy class, we have whole series about it. intrepid class is well known too but we've never seen it in a battle against well known alpha quadrant ships. Now give this ship some values that are easy to overview:

Shields 1000
Hull 500
full volley 500
speed 3 (4 being the top. this is open to debate, i think a modiefied trek.exe allows higher values, however there's only 2 ships of the same race that are faster. The intrepid and the Sovereign. so 1 below to speed is a good choice so far and leaves enough space for earlier, slower ships)

with the current stats a Galaxy need's 3-4 tactical turns to destroy a Galaxy, which is ok for botf and makes battle more intresting. It decreases the cloaking advantage and allows weaker ships to evade ( I personaly think that an alien ship with a strenght which is equal to let's say an excelsior, should still be able to escape a Galaxy in the first tactical turn, but not in the second one)

now all we do is using multipliers: (first by race, I'm using the stats you mentioned in your post)

Klingons:
equivalent ship: Vor'cha
weapons: 2.0 (rounded up from 520 / 269)
Shields: 0.6 (rounded down from 400/ 600)
Hull: 0.8 (rounded down from 175 / 208)

now from these raw values we read that the vorcha would still be 1.28 (calc 2.0 * 0.8 * 0.8) times stronger than a Galaxy. Even tough the klingons are allowed to have a slight military advantage (since this is how you win with klinongs) this is still too much. so we can add some salt by either lowering the klingon's speed or increasing the klingons ship costs and maintenance.

same with Romulans (D'Deridex, here we already have values from your post), Cardassians (probably Keldon, hard to tell, a Galor is definitly to weak) and Ferengi/Borg/Dominion/whatever.
Of course we could also use a Galor as cardassian base ship and then dramatically decrease shield/weapon/hull values and give them other advantages like speed (unlikely since cards seem to be slow), cost (plausible, they lost so many ships in the dominion war and the war against the klingons, and still they keept showing up with hundreds of ships in the final ds9 episode). For cards and Romulans we may also keep their intel as a big advantage in mind.

now we have a base ship for all the races and go on to use multiplier's for the different classes:

Galaxy --> Sovereign

Weapons: 1.8
Shields: 1.9
Hull: 1.2 (those 3 were just some quick guesses)

Galaxy --> Ambassador (or whatever)

Weapons: 0.7
Shields: 0.6
Hull: 0.9 (again 3 quick guesses, here i assumed that the galaxy only has a slightly stronger hull than an ambassador)

and so on for klingons and the other races...quite time consuming, but actually quite simple.
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Re: Vorcha & Galaxy

Post by ruthlessferengi »

Galaxy hull is 208... galaxy rams vorcha 1, vorcha dies... galaxy rams vorcha 2, vorcha dies... :) weapons don't matter much... the only thing that would save vorcha is to stay out of galaxy way - circle, circle, assault, repeat...
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Re: Vorcha & Galaxy

Post by Dr_Breen »

ruthlessferengi wrote:Galaxy hull is 208... galaxy rams vorcha 1, vorcha dies... galaxy rams vorcha 2, vorcha dies... :) weapons don't matter much... the only thing that would save vorcha is to stay out of galaxy way - circle, circle, assault, repeat...
vorcha captains learned their lessons and attack again. cloacked:

Galaxy 1 dies, Galaxy 2 dies, Galaxy 35 dies ....

[turns on canon mode] Galaxy gets rammed by some teeny tiny Bugship, Galaxy blows up [turns canon of again an botf mode back on]

i was never a fan of how ramming is implemented ingame. same goes for cloaking

but as far as i understood geon aimed for a comparison between canon ships.
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Re: Vorcha & Galaxy

Post by geon »

Hi all,

Yes, as Dr Breen has said, I was trying to work out canon ship stats based on onscreen depictions. Despite using non vanilla stats (silly me) I still think the stats I arrived at are pretty close.

As myself and others have also noted, the Galaxy is the ideal benchmark to work out other ship stats (since we have so much information via onscreen encounters in TNG). So, with all that in mind, I’ve decided, with the approval of the forum, to try and provide a ‘canon’ ship list for the community’s inspection and comment.

I can either continue it on this thread, or start a dedicated new thread.

For our benchmark Galaxy, I’ve decided on the following stats -

Galaxy I

Speed - 3
Range - Medium
Hull - 500
Shields - 600
Beam - 3 x Phas X - 55
Torp - Photon – 60

Full volley – 285

It’s a decent all round ship.

There is precious little information on the Galaxy upgrade (Dominion War version).
In TNG Genesis we get the following:

Genesis
Stardate: 47653.2
WORF: The next test will involve the new photon torpedoes. The explosive yield has been increased by eleven percent and I have enhanced the targeting system for increased accuracy
http://www.chakoteya.net/NextGen/271.htm

So, our preliminary Galaxy II photon stat is 62 (rounded up)

Shields are even more difficult to work out. In TNG ‘Yesterday;s Enterprise’,

Yesterday's Enterprise
Stardate: 43625.2
TASHA: Deflector shield technology has advanced considerably during the war. Our heat dissipation rates are probably double those of the Enterprise-C, which means we can hang in a firefight a lot longer. Guinan?
http://www.chakoteya.net/NextGen/163.htm

How do heat dissipation rates relate to shield strength? Are the Galaxy II’s shields double that of an Ambassador I (Enterprise C)? I’ll have to investigate.

With regards to phaser and photon classification, I’ll be initially looking at Memory Alpha, with alterations based on onscreen evidence. Just how accurate their information is (a lot seems to be based on dubious tech manuals), remains to be seen.

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Phaser_array
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Photon_torpedo

Current phaser designations:

Excelsior – Type VIII
Ambassador – Type IX
Galaxy – Type X
Intrepid – Type X
Sovereign – Type XII

Photon classification is trickier. While the Intrepid class is said to have class 6 photons, it also has class 9 and 10 as well. ‘Class’ seems to relate to warhead yield rather than specific photon model. Again, more investigation will be required!
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Re: Vorcha & Galaxy

Post by geon »

Oopps! I used the phaser stat of 55 instead of the photon stats of 60 for the new photon figure for the Galaxy II (I must still be in Christmas mode!!!!)

The photon figure for Galaxy II should be 67 (rounded up).
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Re: Vorcha & Galaxy

Post by Dr_Breen »

Geon. you can edito your post when you make misstakes, that way we got it all together in one post.

i disagree with the intrepid rating. even tough the intrepid class is newer than a galaxy class it's certainly no counterpart for it. while the galaxy is some kind of heavy cruiser (during domnion war! I doubt they had families on board during alll those battles) the intrepid is more likely a light cruiser but from a 10 years later era.
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Re: Vorcha & Galaxy

Post by geon »

Hi Dr Breen,

The type X refers to the phasers being carried, not the type of ship it is. According to Memory Alpha, the Intrepid carries Type X (type 10) phasers, the same as that on the Galaxy. The Sovereign has Type XII (Type 12) etc.

Sorry for not making that clearer.

I agree that the Intrepid is not in the same class as the Galaxy. It's more a fast, long range light cruiser (range long, speed 4)
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