Any way to get use out of Intel on higher difficulties?

[CommodoreGray]

So, the AI gets some protection from intel attacks on Hard and Impossible (viewtopic.php?f=225&t=2311), but has anyone managed to get good results out of sabotage on these levels, especially on Impossible? If so, how?

I'm mostly asking since yesterday I finished a fairly long Impossible game as the Romulans and even with 50+ systems targeting a 12 system Ferengi with 80% of my intelligence points, almost none of my attacks got through and nothing more impressive then destroying about 200 credits was acheived when they did (while when I first played on normal I remember being able to steal thousand of credits with successful attacks). It kind of feels like more than other specialies that the Intel bonuses become utterly useless at higher difficulty levels. It's not so bad with the Romulans since they have good research and cloaks, but the Cardassians have some pretty big weaknesses' with poor research and even less money than the Klingons, and what you'd think was one of their biggest strengths feels like a waste of time.

[thunderchero]

how many point did you have dedicated to intel?

on impossible what ever you think you will need triple it. towards the end of the game it is not uncommon to see 30,000 +

you can not rely on Phoenix Facilities alone you also need to have population assigned to intel.

thunderchero

[CommodoreGray]

On the final turn I had just above 6800 intel (it was a 75% victory and not a 100%, though)--obviously well short of 30,000 so if that's the amount used to pierce AI defense on impossible it's pretty clear why I had limited success--I figured since a research level of around 10,000 was cutting through the tech tree pretty fast that 6000+ Intel would be pretty powerful against those fairly small AI empires. I actually got most of my intel from dedicated intel planets--my starting positon was weighted more towards minor races than empty systems, so I didn't have as many Phoenix Facilities as I'd have wanted since a huge portion of my systems has Cardassian, Klingon, or minor populations.

Thanks for your reply since it gives me an idea of what I'll have to aim for to get some sabotage success. Not sure how to get enough Intel out before the endgame, but I'll work on my colony strategies.

[thunderchero]

30,000 would be modded and large map

yeah it has been a while since I played vanilla (sounds like what you where playing) so upper limit on vanilla I have seen is little over 10,000.

thunderchero

[cleverwise]

I am currently playing a game using the Ultimate Mod and have 108 systems with over 24,000 in Intel and around 1/3 of the systems are still be developed which I will turn into databanks centers. That 24,000 is in natural points with Internal security bonus of over 600%, esp is like 80% and sab is like 50% bonus. I am playing on Hard. I just thought I would post what else is possible. While I am not getting through every time I am making a dent in the target empire (Cards as I am the Feds). I am getting through using 8,000 (or about a 1/3) natural points so multiple that by 80% bonus (1.8 times 8,000 for 14,400).

[CommodoreGray]

I am currently playing a game using the Ultimate Mod and have 108 systems with over 24,000 in Intel and around 1/3 of the systems are still be developed which I will turn into databanks centers. That 24,000 is in natural points with Internal security bonus of over 600%, esp is like 80% and sab is like 50% bonus. I am playing on Hard. I just thought I would post what else is possible. While I am not getting through every time I am making a dent in the target empire (Cards as I am the Feds). I am getting through using 8,000 (or about a 1/3) natural points so multiple that by 80% bonus (1.8 times 8,000 for 14,400).

Yeah, I got some results on my last Hard game using Cardassians, but Impossible seems to be a pretty big jump in AI bonuses, such as their income bonus going from 200% to 400% and seemingly going berserk even more quickly and randomly.

The one thing I'm not sure about is weather having stronger Intel makes the attacks more powerful or just gets them through more. I mean all those Intel structures probably aren't worth it if means I get to steal or destroy 200 credits and bunker networks a little more often. The Obsidian Order costs 300 energy in the game but it sure doesn't look good next to the Central Command's experience ships.
"Good news, we stole 200 credits from the Ferengi in our last operation."
"Oh, great work, it'll just about replace those credits we lost between the couch this month. Get back to me if you manage that another hundred and fifteen times so we can afford to buy another Galor-class. We lost a few smashing the Romulan fleet last week."

[cleverwise]

Well obviously the more systems you can devote to Intel the better. Of course at the very least you need Intel to protect your empire. Plus by attacking another empire with Intel it forces them to readjust their Intel against you so there is value. I look at it as death by a thousands cuts and see any break through as a success. You don't have hit a home run at every bat as continuous singles work just as well.

[CommodoreGray]

I decided to run a quick and somewhat unscientific test.

Started an Impossible game as Cardassians at Tech 5, everyone else was Tech 4. I used F11 so that I found everyone. I maximized my Intel and let the saboteurs loose. The results convince me that Intel can be worthwhile on Impossible; high level infrastructure was getting blasted on their starting systems pretty regularly, several ships got destroyed and, although small, thefts were happening pretty often when I ordered the Economic focus, and there was one big theft of over 3,000. Then it snowballed; the thefts started getting large-scale regularly, as if the Obsidian Order figured out Zek's PIN number and were running wild.

Obviously, this is an extreme scenario but it convinces me the Impossible AI doesn't have outright protection from Very Bad Intel Events, as I originally wondered.

[AlexMcpherson79]

Eh, played as feds, was about level 6 when it stole a million credits on one turn... wish I'd took a screenshot. mind you I did have about 75k+ in intel... WITH some boosts (75% I think for sabo)

[cleverwise]

That's impressive! A million credits... WOW!

[AlexMcpherson79]

On the other hand, this was after a quarter-mil-per-turn to those guys treaty expired... so I guess you could say, I was recovering my monies.

[Callahan]

From my experience, theft is based on enemy funds. If they're broke, you will only get a handfull of cash, no matter the intel power.

[cleverwise]

Yup it is based on credits at hand. However that million credit steal is awesome.

[AlexMcpherson79]

And it was pocket change to me.

At that point, I turned off every %credit+ building just for kicks.


IT was still in the green, after making A LOT of ships.just FIVE fleets.

Mind you, I did set "Trade Goods" to, oh, 25...

[adi]

i play mostly UDM3.0.dc
On impossible I only get to sabotage when i have like 50+ systems and they have only a few left. They get big bonuses so don't expect your offensive intel to work; it does work however in preventing them sabotaging you.
And like Thunder said, you need more than 30k intel; i had games as Romulan with 30K+ intel and 200%+ bonuses and still limited success in sabotaging. But they don't sabotage me anymore or if they get lucky it's just a minor effect.

As to allocation, when i meet a major i use 1 to espionage and up to 10 on sabotage. Don't leave it 0.
Sometimes if i plan to befriend the klingons i leave it at 0-0 against them; but i follow that with not colonizing or building outposts or member-ing minors near them and with waging war and intel war on their enemies; with patience you can get them as allies.

i noticed you might have a better chance of intel-attacking them if you have a significant tech advantage. Other than that intel is just for protection. It only becomes attack effective when you are 5 turns away from exterminating them.

About building intel, don't neglect it even before you meet a major; build and man your intel main structures; they accumulate like an intel buffer which will protect you in the first turns after meeting a major; think of it as the shields of a ship; but they will drain it and then you get sabotaged; but that buffer gives you some turns when your intel might try something against them and even if you have missed it prompts them to reallocate some of their intel to defense instead of attacking you.

And there is a patch out there that when you conquer worlds from a major it keeps the intel buildings(and the sopecial buildings); since intel does not depend on morale, manning those conquered intel buildings is very "profitable".
Here's the link on how to install the "keep intel buildings when conquering":
viewtopic.php?f=294&t=3115