How do you building large fleets?

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Gul Sea
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How do you building large fleets?

Post by Gul Sea » Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:55 pm

In the vanilla game, is there a way to speed up building a fleet?

As a supplemental question, is there a way to pay for the upkeep of a large fleet?

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Re: How do you building large fleets?

Post by thunderchero » Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:46 pm

how big of fleet?

in general for vanilla use dilith exploit, build at any system and have as many system possible to support fleet.

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Re: How do you building large fleets?

Post by Gul Sea » Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:53 pm

I generally start at tech level 1 and give the AI tech levels 2 or 3. So I accept I'm going to be over matched when I reach the middle game.

Between building colony ships, upgrading colonies, pouring resources into intel and research, and industrial upgrades on the home system I never seem to have capacity to build than a few destroyers or cruisers by say turn 150. Plus my income stream would be a mere few 100 credits per turn.

Browsing threads, I've seen references to fair sized human fleets relatively early in the game and I was hoping there was a knack to it. Maybe it's just start at a higher tech level.

On vanilla, tech level 1 is having a fleet of 20 Cruisers and still have a functioning economy and research by turn 150 unrealistic?

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Re: How do you building large fleets?

Post by KrazeeXXL » Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:10 pm

Gul Sea wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:53 pm
Between building colony ships, upgrading colonies, pouring resources into intel and research, and industrial upgrades on the home system I never seem to have capacity to build than a few destroyers or cruisers by say turn 150. Plus my income stream would be a mere few 100 credits per turn.
Really think about the upgrading. It takes the most time. Sometimes it allows to shorten production times of ships to say from 4 to 3 turns or something. But you have to wait 15 turns to get that mass replicator upgrade. That's 15 turns where you could have built at least 5 ships.

On the other side, you badly need the ships to get money from the AI. When you don't have enough military, they're not scared of you and you won't get anything out of them.

Instead of building cruisers, you could build fast attack ships and raid enemy systems. But that's situational at best.

I'd see to get a couple of systems which just pump out ships at an efficient rate (means they shouldn't waste manpower). Upgrade production in a handful of other systems to the latest, then switch.

Fleets are the base and backbone. Only upgrade foundries when you can afford it (isolated position f.e.)

Think about if you really need that food upgrade to free 2 or 3 workers. Sometimes you built faster and it would help, in some cases it won't.

Ah, the magic of micro :mrgreen:

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Re: How do you building large fleets?

Post by Gul Sea » Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:34 pm

KrazeeXXL wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:10 pm
Gul Sea wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:53 pm
Between building colony ships, upgrading colonies, pouring resources into intel and research, and industrial upgrades on the home system I never seem to have capacity to build than a few destroyers or cruisers by say turn 150. Plus my income stream would be a mere few 100 credits per turn.
Really think about the upgrading. It takes the most time. Sometimes it allows to shorten production times of ships to say from 4 to 3 turns or something. But you have to wait 15 turns to get that mass replicator upgrade. That's 15 turns where you could have built at least 5 ships.

On the other side, you badly need the ships to get money from the AI. When you don't have enough military, they're not scared of you and you won't get anything out of them.

Instead of building cruisers, you could build fast attack ships and raid enemy systems. But that's situational at best.

I'd see to get a couple of systems which just pump out ships at an efficient rate (means they shouldn't waste manpower). Upgrade production in a handful of other systems to the latest, then switch.

Fleets are the base and backbone. Only upgrade foundries when you can afford it (isolated position f.e.)

Think about if you really need that food upgrade to free 2 or 3 workers. Sometimes you built faster and it would help, in some cases it won't.

Ah, the magic of micro :mrgreen:
Good advice KrazeeXXL. I've probably focused too much in building upgrade over actually having a fleet. I'll try your strategy at the weekend.

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Re: How do you building large fleets?

Post by slickrcbd » Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:11 pm

That's typically my weakness in all 4X games. I tend to focus too much on infrastructure and don't build enough military units.

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Re: How do you building large fleets?

Post by Korth » Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:27 am

slickrcbd wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:11 pm
That's typically my weakness in all 4X games. I tend to focus too much on infrastructure and don't build enough military units.
We all have that weakness, lol, it's hard to not become attached to systems you've invested lots of turns or credits building up.

I set objectives with deadlines. "Need a fleet to invade the Feds in 25 turns" or whatever. I firmly adhere to my self-imposed deadlines unless something unexpected happens/changes or just one (okay, maybe two) turns longer would greatly improve my odds. It's the only way (for me) to get things done in a 4X game without getting sucked into micromanagement details.

Building/buying structures or upgrades is worth it only if they let me build more ships before my deadline. Maybe Replicators and Wind Turbines free up a few more populations to send into production, so I'll build/buy them first and put those people to work building credits. Maybe that Mark III Foundry Upgrade takes 9 turns and reduces ship build times by one turn each so, after 25 turns, I could build 4 (instead of 5) ships or 5 (instead of 6) ships, etc, which would be counterproductive - right now I want/need ships, I can get the upgrade after my deadline. But maybe the upgrade reduces ship build times from 3 turns to 2 turns, which makes it worthwhile because either way I get 8 ships but this way I also get Mark III Foundries.

Morale structures have long-term payoff (especially in long-term research) but they aren't worth prioritizing and don't help much before a war, especially since a *successful* war keeps generating morale bonuses anyhow, and more ships means more successes.

My primary "warships" are a mix of some Scouts and some Destroyers. Wimpy, but cheap (to build, buy, and maintain) and mobile and versatile and highly effective in quantity. Not many "invasions" occur at Long Range, but then again a mighty Short Range Battleship can hardly even reach distant war zones.

But the majority of the ships in my fleets are Transports. The best wars are those fought on the enemy's turf, so I build up lots and lots (dozens!) of Transports. I use them to quickly build a string of Outposts towards enemy territory and (along with my "warships") far-too-many Transports can invade nearly any planet with total impunity. I immediately put those planets to work building (buying) those big heavy slow warships which would otherwise take forever to bring into the war. No point building mighty fleets over 25 turns then needing another 15-25 turns to bring them across the map into the war - that's just 40-50 turns of paying high maintenance costs instead of moving forward. These subjugated planets tend to sometimes rebel, but each rebellion is just a brief hiccup in ship production and I immediately invade them again, they're all disposable enemy worlds until the war is over anyhow, and better for me to gain intermittent use from them while my enemy is denied, lol. The rest of the worlds in my empire typically focus on pumping out credits until the war is over. I sometimes keep a few of the most experienced ships around (to extinguish rebellions, mostly) but I otherwise liquidate all the slowpoke vessels after the enemy empire is vanquished and pick my next deadline for my next objective (which might actually be a non-military objective instead of another war, lol).

Some enemy planets have heavy, hardened defenses. No worry, just invade one of the nearby soft targets instead, make the population there build (buy) some Strike Cruisers, and achieve the final objective in a slightly different order. Enemy empire ship production tends to be limited (and their economy tends to be crippled) once they lose systems anyways, so populated systems might frequently change hands but you continue to grind towards inevitable victory and rarely suffer any real damage if the enemy does manage to put new ships in space. Any subjugated system with a powered shipyard and 1+ population (along with some credits) can be used to put one brand new warship/Transport in the heart of your enemy's collapsing empire each and every turn, who cares how messy and brutal and awful and destructive life in that subjugated system might be (or if it even continues to exist at all) until after the war is over.

Your empire is effectively paralyzed during the war, not a lot else gets built or researched. The enemy empire either gets wiped out or gets set back by centuries, suffering great losses and having to rebuild, no longer a threat (especially if Invasion Wave One wasn't completely successful but is followed by Invasion Wave Two). But the other three empires continue to move forward with more stuff and more tech ... you'll notice the disparity after your second or third war, not much of an issue vs dumb AI opponents but a real drawback vs human opponents in multiplayer.
[/Korth]

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Re: How do you building large fleets?

Post by KrazeeXXL » Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:35 pm

slickrcbd wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:11 pm
That's typically my weakness in all 4X games. I tend to focus too much on infrastructure and don't build enough military units.
Understandable. Most 4x players tend to do that - myself included. The best cure for that is healthy dose of mp, though. ;)

When a couple of Warbirds and Destroyers come your way after only 16 turns (Cheers Flocke, I'll never forget our first game), you quickly adapt - or you'll get wrecked.

Ships and fleets are pretty much the only direct interaction with the map/the game. I consider myself a 4x vet and yet I have to become better in this regard, too.

Without ships there are no possibilities to react to anything. Crystalline entity before turn 50? Or BORG before turn 100? Well, true BORG don't care about deadlines ^^ And they most certainly don't care about your wind turbine that gives you a worker more, so you can build a ship more in 5 turns. :P

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Re: How do you building large fleets?

Post by thunderchero » Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:42 pm

KrazeeXXL wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:35 pm
When a couple of Warbirds and Destroyers come your way after only 16 turns (Cheers Flocke, I'll never forget our first game)
Flocke would never do that....I thought is was closer to turn 10 :wink:

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Re: How do you building large fleets?

Post by Korth » Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:51 pm

Haha, maybe I need to refine my strategies with some more aggressive mp opponents. The guys I play with aren't bad but they get sucked into the colony micromanagement aspect enough to change the whole flavour of the game.

I agree you need ships to accomplish anything on the map. It's where the real game is won or lost. But you do need population to pay for those ships, industry to build them, tech to unlock them, food and energy and intel to keep ships flowing out of the shipyards uninterrupted ... I focus on seizing population from my enemy to pay for the war then resizing fleets and reassessing objectives while I float towards the next target. Hope that doesn't victimize me in mp vs "pro" opponents.
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Re: How do you building large fleets?

Post by thunderchero » Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:44 pm

Most of those games were during tournaments, small maps, start on tech 4 or 5 sometimes tech 8 death matches. Some games were over by turn 50.

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Re: How do you building large fleets?

Post by Gul Sea » Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:22 pm

KrazeeXXL wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:10 pm
Gul Sea wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:53 pm
Between building colony ships, upgrading colonies, pouring resources into intel and research, and industrial upgrades on the home system I never seem to have capacity to build than a few destroyers or cruisers by say turn 150. Plus my income stream would be a mere few 100 credits per turn.
Really think about the upgrading. It takes the most time. Sometimes it allows to shorten production times of ships to say from 4 to 3 turns or something. But you have to wait 15 turns to get that mass replicator upgrade. That's 15 turns where you could have built at least 5 ships.

On the other side, you badly need the ships to get money from the AI. When you don't have enough military, they're not scared of you and you won't get anything out of them.

Instead of building cruisers, you could build fast attack ships and raid enemy systems. But that's situational at best.

I'd see to get a couple of systems which just pump out ships at an efficient rate (means they shouldn't waste manpower). Upgrade production in a handful of other systems to the latest, then switch.

Fleets are the base and backbone. Only upgrade foundries when you can afford it (isolated position f.e.)

Think about if you really need that food upgrade to free 2 or 3 workers. Sometimes you built faster and it would help, in some cases it won't.

Ah, the magic of micro :mrgreen:
This was great advice.

By building a small fleet instead of chasing upgrades by turn 150 I was able to fight two empires to a draw; merely trading some minor peripheral colonies back and forth.

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Re: How do you building large fleets?

Post by KrazeeXXL » Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:01 pm

thunderchero wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:42 pm
KrazeeXXL wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:35 pm
When a couple of Warbirds and Destroyers come your way after only 16 turns (Cheers Flocke, I'll never forget our first game)
Flocke would never do that....I thought is was closer to turn 10 :wink:
Definitely turn #16. Shocked me enough back then, so I'll never forget it ^^
Korth wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:51 pm
The guys I play with aren't bad but they get sucked into the colony micromanagement aspect enough to change the whole flavour of the game.
Understandable, as it's the nature of the game and pretty much where most of us are coming from. It's viable and pleasurable in SP to play that way. The AI can get caught up with fighting other AI or doing other "interesting" things. In MP, the opponent is clear. And as TC stated, it's often a deathmatch. Once, they see you, there is no turning back. Diplomacy? What was that again? :mrgreen:

I never got much out of it, though. Once all players know most of the exploits, it's up to RNG and starting position and minors. Or it's 3am and you mess up the orders, and your superior ships circle or something ^^
Gul Sea wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:22 pm
This was great advice.

By building a small fleet instead of chasing upgrades by turn 150 I was able to fight two empires to a draw; merely trading some minor peripheral colonies back and forth.
That's a big success! So, you were able to turn the tides. Congratz!

Vs AI, there are often windows when you can upgrade, though. It takes a bit of practice and gut feelings to find and use them. Another advise is to leave your fleets on some crucial points of interest. I never have more than 3 of them, though. When fleets stay there, these are the only points where I build Starbases.

This should scare the AI off. And scaring them off, should help you to extort some money out of them to build even more ships or buy complete upgrades for your systems. I remember an mp game where I scared the Ferengi off so much that he gave me over 300k Credits. He did this 3 times, so I got over a million credits from him at the end. This was insane and as you can imagine, I could buy out pretty much everything then.

Fleets are key. Always build as much ships as you can financially support.

###

Thank god, we don't have Credit Inflation in this game. I just read @ES2 that someone got wrecked in mp because his opponent produced crazy amounts of Dust (Credits equivalent) which raised the ship costs so much that he wasn't able to support his ships anymore. haha

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Re: How do you building large fleets?

Post by Korth » Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:44 pm

"... mess up the orders, and your superior ships circle of something"

I have to admit great ignorance to the actual workings of tactical combat. I've seen fleet battles replayed (many times) with different orders, with a difference being 100% kills or 100% losses on the first turn. I've attempted (a little bit, not methodically) to test how different ships and ship groups perform against each other. And in the end it seems basically random, effectively no way to predict the outcome of Charge vs Strafe vs Harry in a particular battle. I usually just Charge. And Charge again. And Charge again. Generally consistent and predictable results.

"Ram" and "Evade" and "Retreat" seem pretty obvious. "Charge" and "Strafe" and "Harry" do not.

Yes, I understand there's minimum and maximum weapon ranges. And there's Beams and Torps.
And apparently some ships are designed to perform better "alone or in groups", "in small predatory packs", or "in rigid formations".
And Command ships supposedly improve targeting in combat.
And Scouts let you see more detailed information about enemy ships.

But (aside from different ship groups obviously having different tactical command options available) I haven't seen any way to influence the outcome of tactical things or seen any differences between them or when choosing how I'll order my ships to "shoot the enemy" in tactical combat. What I'm saying is that it doesn't seem to matter which tactic I use because it doesn't really seem to affect which weapons my ships fire, or at what range, or at what target, or how they move, or when/where they'll stop moving. No specific way to say "get behind him, uncloak, stay behind him, keep shooting" or "split up, surround target, and keep attacking from all sides" or "get right in his face and keep blasting at short range" or "quit moving around, just aim and fire" or whatever. Instead all the ships of the same "kind" just move around in perfect unison (with sometimes one or two strays splitting off), they all fire at some randomly delayed point in the turn, they act really dumb ... no matter what orders they've been given.

I'm guessing there must be a lot more to it than this, lol.
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Re: How do you building large fleets?

Post by slickrcbd » Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:34 pm

That seems to mostly be my experience as well, except that if the ships are reasonably far from the enemy group I designate and I choose "charge', they generally will fly straight at the enemy and fire.
What they actually do seems somewhat random if I issue any other command. Also what they do when close to the enemy if I choose "charge" seems semi-random.

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