Star Trek Discovery (SPOILERS)

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Martok
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Re: Star Trek Discovery (SPOILERS)

Post by Martok » Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:39 pm

As I said, making the show available only on CBS All Access and Netflix was merely an extra "fuck you" to the fandom. The real damage -- where CBS burned their bridges -- was the whole fiasco with Axanar.
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Re: Star Trek Discovery (SPOILERS)

Post by Korth » Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:04 pm

I've chosen my path and I've chosen to stubbornly adhere to it. I reject Spock's sibling and I reject pointy-headed Klingons, I support the Tribbles! The line must be drawn here! This far! No further!

Even though it does mean I'll never enjoy Mudd² ... which does indeed look entertaining. But it's entertainment which, to my mind, comes at too high a cost. (Not money cost, I'm pretty sure I can afford $6/month even if I watch nothing else on the subscription, lol. But costs extracted from the deep and spiritual places of my soul where the Tribbles and Supreme Commander Kharn dwell.)
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Re: Star Trek Discovery (SPOILERS)

Post by Gul Sea » Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:36 pm

Korth wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:54 am
I've decided to not even give Discovery a chance. CBS has been too aggressively territorial, shutting down Axanar was a precedent which also shuts down all subsequent fanwork worth watching. It's clear that to CBS the franchise is all about the money, not at all about the canon or the culture or the fans. I've seen some screenshots (of the ships/uniforms, etc) which make Discovery look really promising, others (of the "Klingons", etc) which make Discovery look foolish. (Though the above argument that Discovery makes Klingons more "alien" and less "biker gang" is true, lol. But the Klingons have already been mutilated too many times on screen, leave them alone and pick on someone else!)

For me "Star Trek" ended at VOY and ENT and Nemesis. And I include some fan-made work like Star Trek Continues which "remains true" to the characters and stories and flavour and fans. So to me Discovery and Orville and JJ's "Kelvin timeline" Star Trek movies and all the rest - while Officially Star Trek and even Officially Part Of The Cult Of Gene Roddenberry - are merely non-Trek sci-fi which is inspired by, loosely based on, or blatantly rips off Star Trek itself. I can enjoy the new movies for what they are, a couple hours of sci-fi action/adventure, but they are just not (to my mind) "real" Star Trek. And Orville, to me, is more like Galaxy Quest (which I've always loved). But CBS's/Paramount's other ideas are not Trek, and they've coldly killed the Trek I was looking forward to seeing - more than just Axanar - so I really don't care for their "executive vision" and I won't even bother watching (I'll go out of my way to avoid watching) what I've already decided (in a prejudiced manner) that I'm not going to like, lol.

It's a stubborn and close-minded point of view, admittedly. Normally I wouldn't care so much about what amounts to being entertainment, and I've always loved Trek but never really been a hardcore Trekkie (haven't gone to any Cons, don't collect the props/replicas, don't have any Starfleet or Klingon uniforms in my closet, etc). But in this instance I genuinely feel like Trek fans have been betrayed and life is already pretty good without Discovery, so it won't add any "value" and isn't relevant to my Trek/life but it will make me less happy to know I'm supporting the Evil Faceless Corporation instead of the Tribbles. Trek is a "property", CBS "owns" it and refuses to "share" it. It's a done deal, sealed by their lawyers. CBS went out of their way to screw me so I'll just do my own little part in screwing them back.
Totally agree.

I find it highly cynical that they use the Star Trek name to attract a ready made fan base and then betray the canon which the fans have invested in.

Would it have been so very hard for them to create a show which was in accordance with the in-universe history.

It's hard to believe that Star Trek continuum already created was particularly restrictive and non-conducive to further story telling.

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Re: Star Trek Discovery (SPOILERS)

Post by Korth » Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:19 pm

Star Trek used to allow "official canon" and "unofficial fandom" to coexist, side by side. Sure, even Axanar isn't pure canon, planet locations are different, ships are different, old and new characters are doing different things, things and technologies look different and work in different ways, the Four Years War (the central background of the Axanar plot) is itself non-canon and loosely based on some old RPG or novel or something which was also non-canon.

What CBS doesn't seem to recognize is that Trek fans can enjoy watching (and making) Trek movies which can remain "true" or which can diverge, while also embracing the Trek "canon" offered by CBS/Paramount. It's not like watching some free Trek online is going to cut into profits or make anyone decide "they've had enough" and not buy tickets/subscriptions to watch more - quite the opposite. The worst CBS/Paramount can expect is that Trek fans will make all the inevitable comparisons and that some of these won't be flattering - but rather than stepping up to the challenge of upholding themselves to produce better Trek content (let alone <gasp!> actually giving the fandom what the fandom seems to really want) they've expediently assassinated the "competition" with poisonous legal decrees.

Don't get me wrong, contrary to my responses here I'm not especially passionate and not frothing at the mouth over this issue, not trying to champion a lost cause. Just disappointed. And more willing to take a stand and live with "my" values than to pay for the values CBS is trying to sell me. If people find entertainment - or even develop a love for Trek - from Discovery then I genuinely wish them well and say more power to them - Welcome aboard! - but I won't be sitting beside them to watch the show, and I also won't do what CBS has done and try to tell others how they're "allowed" (and "not allowed") to enjoy the show.
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Re: Star Trek Discovery (SPOILERS)

Post by KrazeeXXL » Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:34 pm

Im doing a ST rerun at the moment and yes, I miss quite a bit of that old flavour in the new show.

20 years later, it's a different time, often a different audience. I'm sure, a show following most of the older patterns wouldn't work today. The competition when it comes to TV shows is just so hard. There's so much high quality content out there at the moment. Great, new shows rise here and there, ST has to be different, has to re-invent itself to succeed.

As a rule of thumb, you can't satisfy anyone. The audience is kinda spoiled. Attention spans are shortened.

After I finished DS9, I started VOY and my does it have some weak episodes in it. It's a constant up and down in this show.

What I'd like to see more, is that they'd work together with the fans and listen to what they want more. The ST fanbase is huge and should be more respected, though.

The problem with ST is that it must be extremely hard for writers to consider all of the canon content. I'd compare it to ancient cities like Troy. There are layers upon layers upon layers from different times. As a writer, I can understand that mindset, to have my freedom and make things different. But then it's also hard to not upset the fans who know the shows in and out and perhaps even better than I do. That becomes even harder when I'm a new writer. When I always have to consider what happened in that show 25 years ago, it's probably not really fun. And it makes it laborious and constricted. These are the last things a writer - who goes through creative processes - wants to have.

It's a highly difficult balancing act.

The biggest pro of this show is, that it's definitely not "Jar Trek". I really feared for this and I'm glad that it's definitely not that superficial. The positive thing at the moment is that the amount of characters are limited. So, they are able to focus more on chars and give them quite a bit of good development. It makes things interesting.

In old ST shows, there's that Neelix episode, that Paris episode, that Kira episode, that Bashir episode every now and then. So that everyone gets a little bit screen-time. These episodes are often kinda hit or miss.

The storyteller landscape also changed quite a bit in recent years and I'm looking forward to where it's headed with Discovery.

btw, remember when they left out "Star Trek" out of ENT? I don't know why they did? Perhaps they felt it wasn't enough Star Trek? Now, we got the discussion from the other side. "Star Trek" is in the name of the show and people are dissatisfied with that as well.

I feel that it's correct and logical if I may say so, that the show re-defines itself. It has to go with the times and adapt to a new landscape of TV-Shows, a different audience and different times.

I see it as a reflection of the things that are at the moment.

For better or worse?

That's for us - the audience - to decide.

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Re: Star Trek Discovery (SPOILERS)

Post by thunderchero » Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:26 pm

KrazeeXXL wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:15 pm
Nor, would I call Netflix a paywall.
just so you know, Discovery is only available on netflix outside of the US.

So If you live in US you must subscribe to "CBS all access". :sad:

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Re: Star Trek Discovery (SPOILERS)

Post by KrazeeXXL » Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:26 am

Oh, I didn't know that. That's not good indeed. Now, I understand that sentiment better. I wouldn't want to pay for another service, too. Bollocks. I mean the show is good in my opinion but not that good to pay for another service. I don't know what they might have else in their program that might be worth watching. Getting access for just one show, though, is a nono.

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Re: Star Trek Discovery (SPOILERS)

Post by xDx » Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:07 pm

CBS All Access has every Star Trek show on as well. But I can simply utilize Hulu or Netflix to watch those old ST shows. Personally I enjoy Discovery for the same reasons I enjoyed Abrams version, it breathes new life into an old universe. A universe that must adapt to the times if it is to thrive. I agree with Krazee in all his reasoning why the show might succeed.

However, as a resident of the US, I do not agree with having to purchase another service to simply watch one show I enjoy. It will be bad enough once net neutrality is eliminated here that I will need to pay for even more services to enjoy the internet. There is however other means to watch Discovery in the US, means I will not discuss nor do I endorse or recommend, but there are ways.
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