[Balance] Research speed

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Iscaran
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Re: [Balance] Research speed

Post by Iscaran » Sun Sep 15, 2019 2:28 pm

New Game Iscaran (Research Progress will be edited here) 14Sep Version - patched to 15Sep Version on Turn 16.
Settings: Klingon Empire, Huge, Irregular, Medium, Medium, Early, Some, Canon, Slow, Default, No, No

* Marked Researched by Surveyors ONLY.

Turn 18 - Computers 2
Turn 25 - Biotech 2
Turn 30 - Propulsion 2
Turn 35 - Construction 2
Turn 40 - Energy 2
Turn 45 - Weapons 2
Turn 54 - Construction 3
Turn 59 - Energy 3 *
Turn 59 - Biotech 3

Still quite fast - But better now, considering I use the "SLOW" setting. Reached Turn 61 in 30 minutes. For my personal taste I probably would still reduce the overall modifier to 0.25 (factor 2). But lets see how "steady" this advance becomes.

Surveyor gives 40 RP on Energy for a Pulsar and 30 RP Propulsion on a Wormhole.
Is that an amount what you expected ?

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Re: [Balance] Research speed

Post by Iceman » Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:01 pm

That's consistent with what I'm getting (~half, @Normal).

Do you think survey RPs should be decreased some more? At some point they will only be awarded once per anomaly.
(The Feds and Roms get a bit more)

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Re: [Balance] Research speed

Post by Iceman » Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:06 pm

Anyone else want to join in on the feedback? I see we have 4 other people checking the forum! :eek:

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Re: [Balance] Research speed

Post by Iscaran » Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:33 pm

I think IF the surveyors give a PER ROUND bonus it is WAY too high as it is now. (its basically 2x the effect of a single university building per ship, so early in the game !) You can easily produce 3 surveyors in the first 50 turns and put them on 3 anomalies and replace 6 or even more research buildings (where yourself said one struggles to activate them there due to population constraints !).

However if they give it only ONCE - it could/should be something like 1-10% of a Techlevel.
Ideally I would suggest to make the Bonus ONCE and getting calculated as x% of the "current next unresearched Techlevel in the specific area toggled by the surveyor event"

But on the other hand - I'd wait a little bit with changing around the values (in any direction, without some more "testing").
I mean I basically started trying this game a few weeks ago - so I suppose many more ppl would have other opinions on that matter and maybe much more experience especially later in the game.

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Re: [Balance] Research speed

Post by Iceman » Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:49 pm

I wouldn't say it's 2x, as a lvl1 lab yields 25 RPs, level 2 is 30. 30/40 for the Klingons is hardly 2x :wink: But I understand what you're saying.
However, don't forget that survey ships cost you maintenance (28 or so per turn each IIRC), so those RPs are costing you big time in the early game.

Yep, I wish I had feedback from other people too, take other PoVs into consideration.

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Re: [Balance] Research speed

Post by Iceman » Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:18 am

Iceman wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:49 pm
However, don't forget that survey ships cost you maintenance (28 or so per turn each IIRC), so those RPs are costing you big time in the early game.
Actually, in the very early game they don't, as it's covered by population support. But at some point they will, once you have enough ships.

Should we make survey ships require *all* TLs to be one level higher? Like survey 1 requiring all fields at TL2, and so on.

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Re: [Balance] Research speed

Post by Iscaran » Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:35 pm

Should we make survey ships require *all* TLs to be one level higher? Like survey 1 requiring all fields at TL2, and so on.
Dont know. At the moment probably best to keep it as is. I think adjusting research speed globally is more important then to switch around TL-Prerequisites based on a single playthrough.

As for the upkeep. Yes its correct the ships cost upkeep - but only 26. Not too much considering you get lots of credits by population. And despite being weak they are still combat ships.
But its really hard to say whether the prerequisistes are OK or not as long as the combat system is still very alpha (?) and enemy AI is unknown to me yet (did not meet ANY big player so far :-), guess thats due to the huge galaxy starts I really love to play huge.

As for the general feeling - I'd try to be as close to the original as possible in many cases. As it actually WAS a quite well thought game.

So for example research times - If i could start the old botf on my system and play it one could check how long it took to research there some stuff. PLUS keep in mind that the amount of researchable Items in old BOTF was much lower then in Supremacy - which in fact makes EVERY TL-Field carry much more weight then in BOTF. (Something I really like)

Btw. side note: I Noticed that most minor races ships, which btw. is super cool that they are now buildable for the player, so you get a much more interesting fleet composition overall then just having 20 Cruisers Fed-Style...

Anyway, what I noticed is - they cost the same upkeep as the Major factions ships, yet are (typically) much weaker in terms of firepower and cost the same (?). I would like to see the stats of the different ships being more "scattered" so one might trade in e.g. firepower for less upkeep (per ship)

So just as an arbitrary example with arbitrary numbers:

Klingon Cruiser 8 Phasers x 20 dmg + 2 Torpedoes x 40 dmg, Upkeep 91
Vulcan Cruiser 7 Phasers x 15 dmg +2 Torpedoes x 30 dmg, but Upkeep the same 91 (build costs identical ?) (So maybe one could change the upkeep values to lets say 75 or 80 (since the combat power is also lower ?) or change the overall build costs to be cheaper
Lets say Klingon cruiser 300 duranium, vulcan 250 ?

So actually it would seem "odd" to build vulcan cruisers at all - they are just weeker and cost the same ? However if you reduce the build cost/upkeep "slightly" - it could be much more reasonable to build these ships besides just building them due to "Star Trek flavour".

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Re: [Balance] Research speed

Post by Iscaran » Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:49 pm

Update - just a few turns today however:
New Game Iscaran (Research Progress will be edited here) 14Sep Version - patched to 15Sep Version on Turn 16.
Settings: Klingon Empire, Huge, Irregular, Medium, Medium, Early, Some, Canon, Slow, Default, No, No

* Marked Researched by Surveyors ONLY.

Turn 18 - Computers 2
Turn 25 - Biotech 2
Turn 30 - Propulsion 2
Turn 35 - Construction 2
Turn 40 - Energy 2
Turn 45 - Weapons 2
Turn 54 - Construction 3
Turn 59 - Energy 3 *
Turn 59 - Biotech 3
Turn 64 - Computers 3

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Re: [Balance] Research speed

Post by Iceman » Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:08 am

Iscaran wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:35 pm
Dont know. At the moment probably best to keep it as is. I think adjusting research speed globally is more important then to switch around TL-Prerequisites based on a single playthrough.
This is marginally related though. The effect of survey is less pronounced in TL2 than in TL1.
As for the upkeep. Yes its correct the ships cost upkeep - but only 26. Not too much considering you get lots of credits by population. And despite being weak they are still combat ships.
The basic one, yes, the upgrades have higher upkeep (28, 30). Each. Q'onoS generates from taxes, when maxed out, something like 53 credits? Sol and Romulus something like ~70. Plus Trade Goods if not building anything. I wouldn't say "only".
Btw. side note: I Noticed that most minor races ships, which btw. is super cool that they are now buildable for the player, so you get a much more interesting fleet composition overall then just having 20 Cruisers Fed-Style...

Anyway, what I noticed is - they cost the same upkeep as the Major factions ships, yet are (typically) much weaker in terms of firepower and cost the same (?). I would like to see the stats of the different ships being more "scattered" so one might trade in e.g. firepower for less upkeep (per ship)

So just as an arbitrary example with arbitrary numbers:

Klingon Cruiser 8 Phasers x 20 dmg + 2 Torpedoes x 40 dmg, Upkeep 91
Vulcan Cruiser 7 Phasers x 15 dmg +2 Torpedoes x 30 dmg, but Upkeep the same 91 (build costs identical ?) (So maybe one could change the upkeep values to lets say 75 or 80 (since the combat power is also lower ?) or change the overall build costs to be cheaper
Lets say Klingon cruiser 300 duranium, vulcan 250 ?

So actually it would seem "odd" to build vulcan cruisers at all - they are just weeker and cost the same ? However if you reduce the build cost/upkeep "slightly" - it could be much more reasonable to build these ships besides just building them due to "Star Trek flavour".
Those numbers actually don't match the database - and I don't mean that only literally. The Vulcan Cruiser has very similar stats to the Klingon Cruiser II, with a bit more shields and less firepower (because the Klingon ships have more firepower than everyone else's). The only other differences are Dilithium cost, Speed and Range - but that's because Klingon ships have higher Speed than the rest (and thus higher Dilithium cost); the Range value is probably an oversight though. Maybe we should make Vulcan ships have +1 Range all around?
Having said that, the database is still a WiP, but the goal is to have some of minor race ships have an advantage in some area(s). Some already do that, like the Troop Transports of the T-Rogorans and a couple others, or science ships - those with a very specific purpose have been given a bit more attention, but the general purpose ones still need work. At this point they're pretty much copies of a template for each class, more or less (actually, a couple, as some races are more Klingon-like [Breen IIRC, etc] and the rest are more generic like). Some have cloak, some have better range, but there's still a lot of work to be done (as in, details to be tweaked). Any suggestions are welcome, as usual!
Minor race ships also become obsolete really quick, and that's something that has to be dealt with in some way.

BTW, the Duranium cost is the Hull value of the ship.


Expanding a bit on the above, if you're playing the Klingons and the T-Rogorans join you, you don't get much of a benefit from their Troop Transports directly, as they're not much different, but you prevent all other empires from getting those Transports; OTOH, if you're playing the Roms or Cards, you'll be able to build better Transports than your native ones.
Same with Cloak capable scouts (or even some Cruisers), and Roms vs others.
Some minors have Destroyers that are better at raiding, there should be some construction ships that are better than the empire's (not added yet I think), etc.

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Re: [Balance] Research speed

Post by Iscaran » Tue Sep 17, 2019 4:51 pm

Ah - I misled you. I just posted values to visualize what I thought as there.
I'll look up exact values next time - so perhaps forget the example I constructed here (EDIT: regarding the minor race ships).

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Re: [Balance] Research speed

Post by Iscaran » Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:39 pm

Update - Reached turn 96
New Game Iscaran (Research Progress will be edited here) 14Sep Version - patched to 15Sep Version on Turn 16.
Settings: Klingon Empire, Huge, Irregular, Medium, Medium, Early, Some, Canon, Slow, Default, No, No

* Marked Researched by Surveyors ONLY.

Turn 18 - Computers 2
Turn 25 - Biotech 2
Turn 30 - Propulsion 2
Turn 35 - Construction 2
Turn 40 - Energy 2
Turn 45 - Weapons 2
Turn 54 - Construction 3
Turn 59 - Energy 3 *
Turn 59 - Biotech 3
Turn 64 - Computers 3
Turn 69 - Weapons 3
Turn 73 - Propulsion 3 *
Turn 79 - Construction 4
Turn 84 - Energy 4 *
Turn 89 - Propulsion 4 *
Turn 92 - Biotech 4

As you can see I already have most of TL4 and still not even a GLIMPSE of an enemy Empire. Colonized around 10 systems with 5 more pending to be fully terraformed.
Keep in mind this is playing on SLOW - so I really want to have more time on the Techs to build and use the ships etc.
Though I think TL2 cost is roughly OK...(could be around x2 for my taste, considering playing on SLOW, which would results in the Research Turn numbers being roughly valid for NORMAL game as posted here).
But after TL2 with the increased output due to upgraded universities and more colonies you see how the research speed increases.
Therefore I think a bigger offset between TLs might be better. So more then Factor 2 increase in costs betweent TL2 => TL3 => TL4...maybe go for x3 ?

Btw. how does one scrap orbital batteries ?!? It seems they cant be scrapped ?

And how did I suddenly get a Bilanaian Destroyer in Turn 94 orbiting Qonos without ANY message/event ?

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Re: [Balance] Research speed

Post by Iceman » Tue Sep 17, 2019 8:07 pm

Iscaran wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:39 pm
As you can see I already have most of TL4 and still not even a GLIMPSE of an enemy Empire. Colonized around 10 systems with 5 more pending to be fully terraformed.
Because you're playing on a huge galaxy... Not sure what you would expect here, stay at TL2 for 250 turns until you meet another empire? :razz: This is obviously exacerbated by the fact that you stay at lower TLs for such a long time, so your ships have lower speed and range values...
A large galaxy should make you contact other empires much faster.
But after TL2 with the increased output due to upgraded universities and more colonies you see how the research speed increases.
Therefore I think a bigger offset between TLs might be better. So more then Factor 2 increase in costs betweent TL2 => TL3 => TL4...maybe go for x3 ?
100 turns to get to TL4, with Medium stars and planets and Default PFs, doesn't sound too bad to me :wink:
What's the status in terms of agents? Are you still recruting? Or have you exhausted all of the ENT ones (from retirements)? You should be getting TOS agents soon.
Btw. how does one scrap orbital batteries ?!? It seems they cant be scrapped ?
No, they can't. Not at the moment. Originally they didn't have an upkeep, so it was kind of irrelevant to scrap them.
And how did I suddenly get a Bilanaian Destroyer in Turn 94 orbiting Qonos without ANY message/event ?
What do you mean? Are they at war with you?

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Re: [Balance] Research speed

Post by Iceman » Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:35 am

Here's an idea re survey. Each turn a science ship is surveying an anomaly, roll against its science ability, and if the roll is successful, then you get the RPs; else, you don't. That should decrease the influence of survey on research.
The upgrades of science ships have higher science ability values, so they get higher chances to produce RPs each turn.
For the Cards, for example, SAs are 20%/30%/40%. So on average you should get the RPs once every 5 turns at the lower TLs.
The same could apply to science stations; those have really high SA values, so the effect will be less pronounced.


BTW, the AI doesn't know how to focus on one field at a time yet, so it is kind of at a disadvantage for now.

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Re: [Balance] Research speed

Post by Iscaran » Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:24 pm

Not sure what you would expect here, stay at TL2 for 250 turns until you meet another empire?
Yes. Kind of - I loved it in BotF to fight the "early" fights when everybody still had Destroyer 1 and "maybe" the one who got first to Cruiser I had an edge...despite that. I agree thought that maybe not everyone likes this. Therefore as long as research speed is "moddable" easily. I dont mind it to much when it is too fast by default :-).
What's the status in terms of agents? Are you still recruting?
I have 3 agents - but so far didnt realize what the possibilities are for using them, except to send envoys in Diplomacy screen to minor races.
Can you give me short list of the options one gets with the agents ?
Btw. how does one scrap orbital batteries ?!? It seems they cant be scrapped ?

No, they can't. Not at the moment.
I see - then I have to be careful not to build them :-).
And how did I suddenly get a Bilanaian Destroyer in Turn 94 orbiting Qonos without ANY message/event ?

What do you mean? Are they at war with you?
That ship "just appeared" there and is under my control (is in my fleet) ? Bug ?
Here's an idea re survey. Each turn a science ship is surveying an anomaly, roll against its science ability, and if the roll is successful, then you get the RPs; else, you don't. That should decrease the influence of survey on research.
Hmm - thats an interesting idea. Might be more interesting than the current status. Although I still throw in my idea to allow research on anomalies only ONCE (and then give a quite solid "boost" based on current tech level. (Something like a 10% boost in one field). Though thats maybe harder to implement ?

Science Stations are quite OK in my opinion at the moment...they basically should work like a university building of the same level (but which costs upkeep + it has defenses and works as a starport (range extender).

Also it takes until TL 5 (IIRC ?) to enable building them...so if the early research speed is toned down a little, especially the progress from 2 => 3 => 4 (see the speed of progress is even increasing - despite the cost is raised by x2 for each level)
BTW, the AI doesn't know how to focus on one field at a time yet, so it is kind of at a disadvantage for now.
Thats really a pity. But AI programming is probably the hardest thing, always :-).

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Re: [Balance] Research speed

Post by Iceman » Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:58 pm

I have 3 agents - but so far didnt realize what the possibilities are for using them, except to send envoys in Diplomacy screen to minor races.
Can you give me short list of the options one gets with the agents ?
That's all you can do for now. In the future you'll be able to assign them to your fleets as officers, to boost their stats, or send them on covert missions as spies or saboteurs.

I see - then I have to be careful not to build them :-).
Or to build them wisely :wink:

That ship "just appeared" there and is under my control (is in my fleet) ? Bug ?
Possibly. Are they in your game? Have you met them?
I think I have had something similar a long time ago. Curiously, also when playing the Klingons.
Were you building any ships at that system, that got completed that turn?
Was the ship integrated into an already existing fleet, or was it alone?

Hmm - thats an interesting idea. Might be more interesting than the current status. Although I still throw in my idea to allow research on anomalies only ONCE (and then give a quite solid "boost" based on current tech level. (Something like a 10% boost in one field). Though thats maybe harder to implement ?
Yes, like I said that's what's planned. But it has its problems, some already mentioned. And, if you survey an anomaly with a surveyor 1, you won't be able to survey it again, ever. So that might make surveyors 2 and 3 "useless" - for what they're supposed to be for, that is, surveying. Building science stations already makes them (at least surveyor 3) potentially useless.

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