[Balance] Research speed

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Re: [Balance] Research speed

Post by Iscaran » Sun Dec 08, 2019 3:55 am

By too high you mean there should be more time between agents, or less?
I think more time between Agents might be an idea. Right now I have 7 Agents - but 0 in "use".
The best Operative that is idle in your homesystem will also act as your counter-intel chief of operations, protecting your empire from random intel attacks - which are currently disabled because they're too disruptive and the AI can't handle intel yet.
Thanks for that info. This was totally new to me ! I think we need to start writing a "wiki" or something which contains informations like this.
You're not assigning pop to Intel, right? There are a couple of random events (the terrorism ones) that were added to force you to invest in intel production (which reduces their likelihood of happening). That should slow down research a bit.
Random Events and Specials are deactivated. There were just sooo many negative Events triggering all the time in the last games that I decided to disable that for now.

Also, until now I have no pop on Intel. As I thought it is only needed vs major empires and as I have no contact with anyone yet...no pop on Intel.

However I have a couple of surveyors acting...but thanks to the adjustments the impact of these is now very well balanced in my opinion.

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Re: [Balance] Research speed

Post by Iceman » Sun Dec 08, 2019 5:57 pm

I think more time between Agents might be an idea. Right now I have 7 Agents - but 0 in "use".
You haven't met *any* race? Major or minor?
Huge maps have that... inconvenience. Maybe I should reduce them a bit?
In order to make any changes, they must be map size dependent - else we'll be creating problems in Medium or smaller maps... I'll look into making the 1st agent's spawn turn increase with map size.
BTW, agents that are idle at the homesystem will spend their first 20 turns training, which increases their stats - not as fast as when they're stationed though.

Thanks for that info. This was totally new to me ! I think we need to start writing a "wiki" or something which contains informations like this.
Yea, I'm collecting all the info I'm posting here on the forums, to add it to the manual. I should probably take a break from coding and get down to writing it...

Random Events and Specials are deactivated. There were just sooo many negative Events triggering all the time in the last games that I decided to disable that for now.
Heh, IIRC I toned them down in this latest release. I haven't yet fully understood how the random events are triggered, so it's not easy to get them right.
There will be some more positive ones too, at some point.
Special Events, right now, is just the Borg. There will be others, when I manage to get them coded - like Echo Papa, the Crystal Entity, etc.

Also, until now I have no pop on Intel. As I thought it is only needed vs major empires and as I have no contact with anyone yet...no pop on Intel.
Well, there are terrorists among your own people. :wink: You might need some internal security to prevent those malcontents to blow stuff up .

However I have a couple of surveyors acting...but thanks to the adjustments the impact of these is now very well balanced in my opinion.
Cool! Thank you and everyone else for your input!
If you find it better to make them have a more robust output, but increase their build cost and maintenance, LMK. Or any other change ofc.

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Re: [Balance] Research speed

Post by Iscaran » Sun Dec 08, 2019 8:04 pm

You haven't met *any* race? Major or minor?
Ah, I was not speficic enough in my post.
I have not met any Major yet. 3 Minors so far. All now part of the Empire by now.
Heh, IIRC I toned them down in this latest release. I haven't yet fully understood how the random events are triggered, so it's not easy to get them right.
There will be some more positive ones too, at some point.
Special Events, right now, is just the Borg. There will be others, when I manage to get them coded - like Echo Papa, the Crystal Entity, etc.
Interesting Info about Special and random events.

In my opinion the problem is. If you leave it on at the moment it just leads to your systems getting crippled one by one by one of the "harsher" events (reducing popluation permanently). Ultimately leading into a boring game where you no longer own ANY good system (except for home system?)

If you want this to be balanced you need to have positive and negative such events to occur at roughly a balanced rate. AND I think the overall occurence rate is maybe a little bit too high ? (Like 1 big population reduction event every 10 turns or so - but maybe I was unlucky in my first attempts.
If you find it better to make them have a more robust output, but increase their build cost and maintenance, LMK. Or any other change ofc.
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I find surveyors so far OK now. Lets see how it gets on the higher levels.
However there might be a little too many "surveyable" objects around ? (Especially e. g. wormholes are always immediately 2 such objects.)
Also Ion Storms could possibly be quite "exploited" - however they seem to ruin your ships. So you would have to move in/out every 2nd/3rd turn or so ? (Have to play more :-) too see how it "feels")

But the main reason I am posting now is.

I found again on "Ankari" Ship appearing out of nowhere.:

I suppose it disappears when I hit end turn...though still there is something causing this to happen. Btw. I have built the surveyor this turn on that station.
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Re: [Balance] Research speed

Post by Iceman » Sun Dec 08, 2019 8:45 pm

I have not met any Major yet. 3 Minors so far. All now part of the Empire by now.
So you used envoys on them to get them to join as members?

In my opinion the problem is. If you leave it on at the moment it just leads to your systems getting crippled one by one by one of the "harsher" events (reducing popluation permanently). Ultimately leading into a boring game where you no longer own ANY good system (except for home system?)

If you want this to be balanced you need to have positive and negative such events to occur at roughly a balanced rate. AND I think the overall occurence rate is maybe a little bit too high ? (Like 1 big population reduction event every 10 turns or so - but maybe I was unlucky in my first attempts.
Which population reducing events?
There are currently 12 Random Events, 9 negative and 3 positive (plus 2 positive colonization events).

Of those 9, one is just -Credits (Embezzlement), another is just deactivating stuff (Solar Flare). 3 are really harsh (Asteroid, Comet, Supernova), but set to 50% occurence chance and should only occur once per civ (the AI is also affected by events). Earthquake and Plague are less harsh and are there to make PopulationHealth buildings (and ships) matter (though they also reduce casualties in bombardment/invasions), but population can recover from both.
The other 2, the Terrorism ones, are those that I mentioned earlier, designed to "force" you to allocate labor to intel (the SitRep mentions that). These are set to occur frequently, yes, on purpose, but I don't recall them causing casualties? One is -Credits, the other destroys PFs. If you generate 100+ intel on a colony, you're safe. :wink:
Most of these events are kind of proof-of-concept, exploring what can be done with them. They can/will be tweaked according to feedback.
BTW, you can deactivate them or change their occurence chance and stuff in:
\Data\ScriptedEvents.xaml
There's also a minimum turn for them to start happening, but that's hard-coded - it's in my ToDo list to expose it in the above xaml.

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Re: [Balance] Research speed

Post by Iceman » Sun Dec 08, 2019 8:57 pm

However there might be a little too many "surveyable" objects around ? (Especially e. g. wormholes are always immediately 2 such objects.)
Maybe. That's easily moddable too. The reason they're somewhat common is to make space a bit more interesting. Maybe it is a bit too interesting? :wink:
Notice that WHs aren't always paired. Some are Unstable, so they do not have another WH as an endpoint. But now that you mentioned it, maybe you shouldn't be able to survey a WH that is beyond your range? That is, if the survey ship would be otherwise stranded (if not in the WH sector). You could work around that by building a science station in the WH.

Also Ion Storms could possibly be quite "exploited" - however they seem to ruin your ships. So you would have to move in/out every 2nd/3rd turn or so ? (Have to play more :-) too see how it "feels")
You can only have one survey ship or science station surveying each Ion Storm (all its sectors). Is that what you mean by exploited? And yes, they can damage ships, like BHs and NSs.

I found again on "Ankari" Ship appearing out of nowhere.:

I suppose it disappears when I hit end turn...though still there is something causing this to happen. Btw. I have built the surveyor this turn on that station.
Can you check if it disappears and let me know please?

Which surveyor and which station?

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Re: [Balance] Research speed

Post by Iceman » Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:46 am

Which surveyor and which station?
Sorry, I see, I guess you meant the surveyor in that colony - in this case you built it in Yridia, and that's where the Ankari Cruiser spawned.
I think the other time it happened to you, it happened in one of your native (Klingon inhabitants) colonies, right? It's probably a threading issue.

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Re: [Balance] Research speed

Post by Iscaran » Mon Dec 09, 2019 5:14 pm

Which population reducing events?
There are currently 12 Random Events, 9 negative and 3 positive (plus 2 positive colonization events).

Of those 9, one is just -Credits (Embezzlement), another is just deactivating stuff (Solar Flare). 3 are really harsh (Asteroid, Comet, Supernova), but set to 50% occurence chance and should only occur once per civ (the AI is also affected by events).
I had these 3 happening somehow nearly every few turns...reducing like 5 Systems to a rubble... Perhaps the chances to occure are to high then, or theres an error somewhere.
Maybe you should counter-balance Asteroid, Comet, Supernova by events which occur similarly often but have the corresponding possitive shift for system population (unexpected climate change...or whatever one might call these).
Perhaps it was different - the last game I played with Random evens on was some July version AFAIK. (when I started playing Supremacy).

Anyway - I'll check on random events later, when starting next game.
Earthquake and Plague are less harsh and are there to make PopulationHealth buildings (and ships) matter (though they also reduce casualties in bombardment/invasions), but population can recover from both.
Are you sure that this works as it is intended - as I recall having built all health buildings etc. and the colonies were still struck by this.
The other 2, the Terrorism ones, are those that I mentioned earlier, designed to "force" you to allocate labor to intel (the SitRep mentions that). These are set to occur frequently, yes, on purpose, but I don't recall them causing casualties? One is -Credits, the other destroys PFs. If you generate 100+ intel on a colony, you're safe. :wink:
OK didnt know that Intel already serves a purpose...then I will try activating random events in the next game.
Most of these events are kind of proof-of-concept, exploring what can be done with them. They can/will be tweaked according to feedback.
BTW, you can deactivate them or change their occurence chance and stuff in:
\Data\ScriptedEvents.xaml
There's also a minimum turn for them to start happening, but that's hard-coded - it's in my ToDo list to expose it in the above xaml.
Lets wait with that until I play a game with events enabled back in for better and more precies feedback.

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Re: [Balance] Research speed

Post by Iscaran » Mon Dec 09, 2019 6:42 pm

So far nearly 100% of the wormholes were double-ended (alias I could travel them).

The surveyors can be positioned on each end of such a wormhole. I did not try placing multiple surveyors on one object. I assumed this would have been blocked by the game engine - as it would in my opionion be clearly exploiting that survey feature.

As for the ion storms:
You can only have one survey ship or science station surveying each Ion Storm (all its sectors). Is that what you mean by exploited? And yes, they can damage ships, like BHs and NSs.
I understood that you can survey EACH sector of a storm with 1 ship. Thus If I had a storm spanning 5x2 sectory I could build 10 surveyors and survey all sectors at the same time.
" I found again on "Ankari" Ship appearing out of nowhere.:

I suppose it disappears when I hit end turn...though still there is something causing this to happen. Btw. I have built the surveyor this turn on that station."

Can you check if it disappears and let me know please?
Said ship did not disappear. After 2 Turns it is now part of the klingon fleet:
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Re: [Balance] Research speed

Post by Iscaran » Mon Dec 09, 2019 7:41 pm

OK - last post for today. Just a small update on the progress and I can confirm that Surveying Ion Storms is working as you describe and not as I thought. Surveying of Storms is only possible with 1 Surveyor at a time.

Recruitment
Turn 11: Antaak - Retired in Turn 114
Turn 20: Vorok - Retired in Turn 120
Turn 28: Buka'H
Turn 39: Goroth
Turn 51: Klaang
Turn 60: Korok
Turn 72: K'Vagh

Research:
Turn 15: Biotech 2
Turn 25: Computers 2
Turn 35: Propulsion 2
Turn 44: Weapons 2
Turn 49: Construction 2
Turn 54: Energy 2
Turn 64: Construction 3
Turn 71: Propulsion 3
Turn 73: Biotech 3
Turn 79: Weapons 3
Turn 87: Computers 3
Turn 106: Construction 4
Turn 112: Biotech 4
Turn 117: Propulsion 4
Turn 120: Computers 4

So by Turn 130 I will have completely reached TL 4 in all areas...still not even seen another major force.

I think - research speed "could" still be slowed down by 50% (considering that I deliberately used SLOW-Research progress). In Fact I would have liked to see a small scale conflict to show up using the early ships...but probably I will have progressed to tier 3 level ships before there is even someone in fighting range.
EDIT: Or research progression between TL needs to be further increased (the "distance" between TL1=>2=>3 needs to be larger ?)
Either way. Either slow down everything by a factor or increase the Cost scaling.

HOWEVER - before rushing to changes, let me play till TL10 first :-) or at least some further. /EDIT

As for the Intel / Sabotage events.

I understand that if you reach 100 intel Points PER System - this event it blocked ?
Does it have to be 100 points produced locally on THAT System. Or is this a "global" per empire (number of systems/total Intel points).

Two things I would think about:

1.) If this is set to be affected by LOCAL production then I think you need to "scale" this value by system population.
BECAUSE if you have a very low pop system (lets say <100 pop). You can barely reach 100 intel at all...meaning that especially this low colony will be a permanent target of sabotages.

Suggestion: Scale this event trigger by the value of the square root of system population (multiplied by a factor X).
So lets assume x=5
Then this means system with 100 pop will need to have 50 Intel to be produced to be 100% safe of terrorism. For x=1 the needed Intel value would be 10.
Similarly System with 400 pop will need 100 Intel (X=5) or 20 Intel production in this show case example to be safe from terrorism.

Additional Thought: Maybe this could be scaled by the systems morale (very high morale x=1, very low morale x=5)

2.) If the Intel checking for the terrorism is global - then this is not an issue, as stronger systems can easily take over the protection burden for the lower ones.

3.) It could be a combination of both.

Though I personally like the idea that this somehow corresponds to the empires "unrest" value. So I like option 1 (including a morale dependant modifier) best.

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Re: [Balance] Research speed

Post by Iceman » Tue Dec 10, 2019 9:35 am

Iscaran wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 5:14 pm
I had these 3 happening somehow nearly every few turns...reducing like 5 Systems to a rubble... Perhaps the chances to occure are to high then, or theres an error somewhere.
I changed the parameters of those following your feedback (though I think in part it was just luck - or lack of). The latest release should be better.

Maybe you should counter-balance Asteroid, Comet, Supernova by events which occur similarly often but have the corresponding possitive shift for system population (unexpected climate change...or whatever one might call these).
At some point, those will be added. Time (as in, free time) is the main issue here.

Are you sure that this works as it is intended - as I recall having built all health buildings etc. and the colonies were still struck by this.
Notice I didn't say they prevent them from happening :wink: They reduce casualties only, IIRC. And the Klingons only have the basic one, whereas the Feds and Roms have an upgrade.

So far nearly 100% of the wormholes were double-ended (alias I could travel them).
Yep, *nearly*, and that's the objective. They're supposed to either allow you access to parts of the map you otherwise wouldn't have, or provide fast(er) access to parts of the map where you need to deploy fleets.

The surveyors can be positioned on each end of such a wormhole. I did not try placing multiple surveyors on one object. I assumed this would have been blocked by the game engine - as it would in my opionion be clearly exploiting that survey feature.
You assumed correctly. :wink:
I could not allow surveying one endpoint of a WH if the other endpoint is already being surveyed by your civ.

Said ship did not disappear. After 2 Turns it is now part of the klingon fleet:
Yea, I suspected it wouldn't.

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Re: [Balance] Research speed

Post by Iceman » Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:54 pm

Iscaran wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 7:41 pm
Recruitment
Turn 11: Antaak - Retired in Turn 114
Turn 20: Vorok - Retired in Turn 120
...

Research:
...
Turn 106: Construction 4
Turn 112: Biotech 4
Turn 117: Propulsion 4
Turn 120: Computers 4
Seems to be almost matching. You should then (@TL4) start recruiting personnel from the TOS era.

So by Turn 130 I will have completely reached TL 4 in all areas...still not even seen another major force.
Yea well, like I said before, that's a problem with playing a Huge galaxy... there isn't much I can do about that except reduce the size of Huge galaxies.
OTOH, you could try a smaller galaxy and see how that goes :wink: You might get to experience those battles with early ships that you want.

I think - research speed "could" still be slowed down by 50% (considering that I deliberately used SLOW-Research progress). In Fact I would have liked to see a small scale conflict to show up using the early ships...but probably I will have progressed to tier 3 level ships before there is even someone in fighting range.
Actually I was considering, for the current release, increasing TL1 to 750 (from 500), but ended up waiting for feedback with all the other changes.

As for the Intel / Sabotage events.

I understand that if you reach 100 intel Points PER System - this event it blocked ?
Does it have to be 100 points produced locally on THAT System. Or is this a "global" per empire (number of systems/total Intel points).
Yes, if a system produces (locally) 100 intel, it should be safe. The current formula is a very simplistic roll vs (100 - intel) IIRC; can't recall if the counter-intel bonus from agents is already coded for this or not...
This means that you'll need 2~4 intel PFs, depending on TL, to completely secure a colony; or one of the +100 Intel buildings (Cards, Roms).
I'll reply to the rest later, but this is by no means a definitive implementation. I just needed some quick way to absorb pop from research, so we could better balance research speed - to not let this matter drag for too long.

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Re: [Balance] Research speed

Post by Iceman » Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:23 pm

Notice I didn't say they prevent them from happening :wink: They reduce casualties only, IIRC. And the Klingons only have the basic one, whereas the Feds and Roms have an upgrade.
Checked the code, and yep, they reduce casualties only; there's a minimum (hardcoded) 10% casualties, which does not allow preventing the event. I can easily remove that limit (and in Earthquake too), what do you guys think?

I could not allow surveying one endpoint of a WH if the other endpoint is already being surveyed by your civ.
Done. :cool: You should now only be able to survey one of the endpoints of a WH.

1.) If this is set to be affected by LOCAL production then I think you need to "scale" this value by system population.
That's what I had initially, with a 1:1 ratio. But it was kind of heavy on larger systems early on.

BECAUSE if you have a very low pop system (lets say <100 pop). You can barely reach 100 intel at all...meaning that especially this low colony will be a permanent target of sabotages.
With 4 intel PFs (TL1) manned (40 pop), it's safe (that's the max you'll ever need); with only 3, there's only a 25% chance of an attack succeeding. At TL3 you only need 3, etc.
Also notice that one of the attack types only costs you credits, can´t recall the formula right now - it has to do with if the colony has trade routes (part of that income is lost) or not (part of the tax income is lost).
These intel points are not lost with these events, they'll still accumulate in your intel pool.
We can also make these only trigger after say, 100 turns or whatever, so you can have better intel facilities.

Suggestion: Scale this event trigger by the value of the square root of system population (multiplied by a factor X).
So lets assume x=5
Then this means system with 100 pop will need to have 50 Intel to be produced to be 100% safe of terrorism. For x=1 the needed Intel value would be 10.
Similarly System with 400 pop will need 100 Intel (X=5) or 20 Intel production in this show case example to be safe from terrorism.
Shouldn't this be the exact opposite, a "quadratic" function instead of a square root? Else the relative burden on smaller systems is higher than on larger ones. It should be easier to make smaller systems safe, no?

Additional Thought: Maybe this could be scaled by the systems morale (very high morale x=1, very low morale x=5)
Definitely, yes!
But I'd probably go with a straight modifier to the %, like adding (morale - 100) to the intel production?
A system with 200 morale (Fanatic) wouldn't need to worry about domestic terrorism (external threats are another issue).
Maybe the Cards could have a bonus here - they were supposed to have a bonus to (local) intel production in BotF when morale (in the colony) is really high, IIRC? The Dominion could also have some bonus?

2.) If the Intel checking for the terrorism is global - then this is not an issue, as stronger systems can easily take over the protection burden for the lower ones.
Which is probably how the intel game will be (vs external threats).

Though I personally like the idea that this somehow corresponds to the empires "unrest" value. So I like option 1 (including a morale dependant modifier) best.
The empire's average morale vs the local morale at a colony might also be something to consider, though it might be complicating things too much.

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Re: [Balance] Research speed

Post by Iscaran » Wed Dec 11, 2019 5:03 pm

Wooaaa - lots of changes :-).
Lets not rush thing OK - just because of a single opinion :-).
I'll try to answer all in order.

Regarding Random Events
I changed the parameters of those following your feedback (though I think in part it was just luck - or lack of). The latest release should be better
At some point, those will be added. Time (as in, free time) is the main issue here.
I understand - that adding these evens might be a time problem - but UNTIL an equal amount of similarly positive events is added the game can get quite boring/bothersome (as I experience).

Reducing the negative permanently system-changing events occurence UNTIL positive events of that type are implemented is definitely a good way. I mean if that happence once per game (~500 Turns ?) I think nobody would really have to bother.

But even IF there are similar positive events implemented LATER. I think any event of that type should not trigger more then 1, 2 times PER GAME. (~500 Turns, maybe dependant on Galaxy size ?)

Regarding Terrorism events and Intel:
Notice I didn't say they prevent them from happening :wink: They reduce casualties only, IIRC. And the Klingons only have the basic one, whereas the Feds and Roms have an upgrade.

Yes, if a system produces (locally) 100 intel, it should be safe. The current formula is a very simplistic roll vs (100 - intel) IIRC; can't recall if the counter-intel bonus from agents is already coded for this or not...
This means that you'll need 2~4 intel PFs, depending on TL, to completely secure a colony; or one of the +100 Intel buildings (Cards, Roms).
I'll reply to the rest later, but this is by no means a definitive implementation. I just needed some quick way to absorb pop from research, so we could better balance research speed - to not let this matter drag for too long.

Checked the code, and yep, they reduce casualties only; there's a minimum (hardcoded) 10% casualties, which does not allow preventing the event. I can easily remove that limit (and in Earthquake too), what do you guys think?
First, I think earthquake events happen too often (just general observation).
Earthquakes are NOT tied to the Security/Intel/Terrorism feature right ? (a little bit unclear how you posted this, if it is in the same category)

As for the Intel/Terrorism thing in general

OK - I understand (better). I think if you make it like this - you could maybe make a VERY SMALL amount of terrorism occur just randomly. Meaning even if the protection calculation is sufficient it could very very occasionally still happen. However I think the major part of that should be avoidable by sufficient intel. AND it should be 100% avoidable (as in 0% effect ("no casualties").

The idea in General is nice and I like it a lot, however as I described the actual value needed to "protect" should be dependant on system population. (see my idea posted in 1.)
Of course one has to think about the amount needed. Also the amount needed might have to "scale" with Techlevel. (in order to allow a certain amount of population drain to Intel/Security, despite though on low Techlevels one would have the issue that if you use a fixed value one can barely achieve it, especially on "weak" systems.

Thus I think one needs to reshape the "cost function". (how much intel is needed to protect the system, dependant on system SIZE and Techlevel of the empire /and morale ?)

Or make this an "Empire wide" calculation. Total Empire Population = Intel points needed to "secure"...if NOT secure enough, xx% chance to trigger a terrorism attack on RANDOM target planet. And maybe it should be coupled / tied with Morale. (Maybe like Population*Morale (with high morale giving a lower multiplier for "security needs").

I think the empire wide Security /Intel system would avoid lots of problems with low population system beeing a burden to the empire.

Your option also sounds nice and maybe easier to implement.
Definitely, yes!
But I'd probably go with a straight modifier to the %, like adding (morale - 100) to the intel production?
A system with 200 morale (Fanatic) wouldn't need to worry about domestic terrorism (external threats are another issue).
Maybe the Cards could have a bonus here - they were supposed to have a bonus to (local) intel production in BotF when morale (in the colony) is really high, IIRC? The Dominion could also have some bonus?
One would definitely need maybe some "feedback" in game about the required amount of intel production / security level though ? Until you told me, I was completely unaware of this "hidden" mechanic...
The empire's average morale vs the local morale at a colony might also be something to consider, though it might be complicating things too much.
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If you have implemented a check like described above with morale - 100 = intel value for security it is basically identical to this - just much easier to implement.
However the generall terrorism thing, is problematic if you really base it on a system "basis"...weak systems could basically have UNAVOIDABLE terrorism issues (due to general lack of population for Intel).

Thus I think the best solution would be to make "Unrest/Terrorism" events getting triggered on a EMPIRE wide calculation (summing up for example ALL systems (morale - 100) values and allowing for the entire empires "Intel" production to counter it.

IF the event would then trigger - I would randomly choose a system where the attack happens. The extent of damage could be tied to the fact by HOW MUCH the Security Calculation was insufficient.

Of course external sources of sabotage etc. should not be linked to this (like other majors sabotage attacks etc...).
With 4 intel PFs (TL1) manned (40 pop), it's safe (that's the max you'll ever need); with only 3, there's only a 25% chance of an attack succeeding. At TL3 you only need 3, etc.
Also notice that one of the attack types only costs you credits, can´t recall the formula right now - it has to do with if the colony has trade routes (part of that income is lost) or not (part of the tax income is lost).
These intel points are not lost with these events, they'll still accumulate in your intel pool.
We can also make these only trigger after say, 100 turns or whatever, so you can have better intel facilities.
I think the basic problem with a fixed value is - that EARLY on and WEAK systems will generally have big issues to "cover" - my preference therefore would be to make this Event Trigger on an empire wide basis.
Shouldn't this be the exact opposite, a "quadratic" function instead of a square root? Else the relative burden on smaller systems is higher than on larger ones. It should be easier to make smaller systems safe, no?
You are right, my fault bad example. Though rethinking it. It would be sufficient if it just scaled linearly with population....The biggest problem ist when the "Security Cost" is a fixed value. Then it overburdens weak systems. A Plain linear scaling with pop would thus already be a good starting point.
In case one would want to "hurt" larger systems more, one could do it the way you propose. However, I'd be careful to add "additional" burden on strong systems...These systems have to carry the extra costs for "special buildings" already as well.
So probably, in case you change anything in this Game mechanic area those things are in my opinion the most interesting ones:
1.) Make the trigger empire wide (not system specific triggering)
2.) Make the trigger calculation scaled by population and morale (any maybe average empire Techlevel - so that EARLY games are not hurt by security overburdening in the EARLY stages, while later it is a too tiny effect, people can safely ignore it (as Tech 10 Intel buildings would just produce so much Intel you dont have to bother at all with just a few active).

Finding this number will be a task for a new game though - with random events re-enabled though. (maybe Jan/Feb then ^^). Or somebody else has to test this.
That's what I had initially, with a 1:1 ratio. But it was kind of heavy on larger systems early on.
That observation sound counterintuitive to me - it should actually always be a bigger issue for weaker systems...unless you mean you scaled it like 1 pop = 1 security point...thats of course too much especially EARLY when an Intel Buidling only produces like 25 points or so. But even then it would have been even worse for weaker systems because EARLY you produce so little Intel and a weaker system also cant allow e.g. 4 pops on Intel "just to be safe"...

Generally, I think the better way to deal with this is to swithc to a more empire wide triggering of this event.

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Iscaran
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Re: [Balance] Research speed

Post by Iscaran » Wed Dec 11, 2019 5:06 pm

As for research speed:
Yea well, like I said before, that's a problem with playing a Huge galaxy... there isn't much I can do about that except reduce the size of Huge galaxies.
OTOH, you could try a smaller galaxy and see how that goes :wink: You might get to experience those battles with early ships that you want.
I dont think its a problem of a "too large" galaxy - its a problem of TOO fast tech progress :-)

BUT please do not change research speed values until I have continued this game to tech 8/9. :)...

Iceman
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Re: [Balance] Research speed

Post by Iceman » Wed Dec 11, 2019 5:55 pm

Iscaran wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 5:06 pm
As for research speed:
Yea well, like I said before, that's a problem with playing a Huge galaxy... there isn't much I can do about that except reduce the size of Huge galaxies.
OTOH, you could try a smaller galaxy and see how that goes :wink: You might get to experience those battles with early ships that you want.
I dont think its a problem of a "too large" galaxy - its a problem of TOO fast tech progress :-)

BUT please do not change research speed values until I have continued this game to tech 8/9. :)...
Well, I meant the 2nd part of your sentence:
"still not even seen another major force." :wink:

Don't worry, I won't change them. I usually wait for other opinions, unless it's a no-brainer, or something that was already planned.

I mean if that happence once per game (~500 Turns ?) I think nobody would really have to bother.
But even IF there are similar positive events implemented LATER. I think any event of that type should not trigger more then 1, 2 times PER GAME. (~500 Turns, maybe dependant on Galaxy size ?)
I made it 600 turns actually :wink: And they will not hit a system twice. Supernova can only be triggered once per civ. And they all have only a 50% chance to happen.

First, I think earthquake events happen too often (just general observation).
Earthquakes are NOT tied to the Security/Intel/Terrorism feature right ? (a little bit unclear how you posted this, if it is in the same category)
They can now only happen once every 300 turns, and will not hit a system twice.
Nope, no relation to intel.

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