Feedback needed

Supremacy; support/discussion/questions

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Martok
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Re: Feedback needed

Post by Martok » Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:39 pm

Heh. :)

I'd say give it a whirl and make the Founders immune to plague. At worst, you can always change it back if it turns out that doing so makes them OP, but I suspect it won't.
"Evil is easy, and has infinite forms." -- Pascal

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Re: Feedback needed

Post by Iceman » Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:39 am

Done.
Yep, I suspect it won't, too.
Thanks!

--


One other thing I'd like to get some feedback on, bombardment damage.

Up to (and including) the SupremacyTest_20190517.zip release, there didn't seem to be much difference between choosing Balanced and Maximum Damage (mostly these 2). I mean, in the amount of destroyed structures, and how those destroyed structures are distributed (Buildings vs Facilities).

In the test exes, this has been reworked, and it seems to me it's a bit better (in that there's more clear distinction between the bombardment types), but I'd like to get some feedback on this - it might be just my impression that it is better...

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Re: Feedback needed

Post by starkelja » Mon Dec 30, 2019 5:07 pm

Hello,

I first tried this game back in 2008 or 2009 when it didn't have AI and said to myself I'll check in few years, and well I am not disappointed, but ...

I would like to see more winning option, like total annihilation or something simillar, and of course economic win, technology win etc.
Because after ~500 turns I get an economic win and AI stops developing. Its a problem for medium and big maps as there is no point in playing if I win before I find anybody.

Another thing after ~600 turns I run out of envoys. You need more envoys, or make these last longer :D. But I see myself playing this for 2000 turns maybe more when AI will be more chalenging, and that brings me to AI difficulty. There is definitely a need for better envoy system. Maybe to be given an option of recruiting envoys, and be able to recruit a definite amount, and envoys traits should impact more on gameplay, thru construction, battle, or reserach bonuses, and possibility to lose an envoy if you go to war before recalling him. Have some envoys with better diplomatic traits, and some with better economic traits, etc., so thru choosing envoys you can define your pace and stile of play.

In the old build after colonization, system started with highest researched tech, and in this build I have to upgrade every system from lvl 1, sometimes on random some buildings and not in every system, upgrade on itself to highest researched lvl.
Definitely its better to start with highest researched lvl. after colonization, faster gameplay, and not so tiresome.

That's it for now :D

Best regards

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Re: Feedback needed

Post by Iceman » Tue Dec 31, 2019 3:05 pm

Hi starkelja, welcome to the forums! And thanks for posting!

I'll try to answer some of your comments.
starkelja wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 5:07 pm
I would like to see more winning option, like total annihilation or something simillar, and of course economic win, technology win etc.
Those are already implemented. There are a few victory conditions, you can check them in the Settings panel, Gameplay tab. From memory, Alliance, Domination, Technology, Score, Supremacy, ...

Because after ~500 turns I get an economic win and AI stops developing. Its a problem for medium and big maps as there is no point in playing if I win before I find anybody.
Big maps are a problem in some areas. In the latest patch I've reduced Huge to 72x72 to try to minimize this a bit.
What do you mean the AI stops developing? They shouldn't unless you choose to terminate the game obviously.

Another thing after ~600 turns I run out of envoys. You need more envoys, or make these last longer :D.
In the latest patch I've made the spawn rate slower for Slow tech level starts. Are you playing the 20191206 release or the 23dec patched version?

But I see myself playing this for 2000 turns maybe more when AI will be more chalenging,
Ugh, the game is not designed to last that long. :shock:

and that brings me to AI difficulty. There is definitely a need for better envoy system. Maybe to be given an option of recruiting envoys, and be able to recruit a definite amount, and envoys traits should impact more on gameplay, thru construction, battle, or reserach bonuses, and possibility to lose an envoy if you go to war before recalling him. Have some envoys with better diplomatic traits, and some with better economic traits, etc., so thru choosing envoys you can define your pace and stile of play.
You can mod a few things about envoys, in the \Data\PersonnelConstants.xml file. Namely the number of active envoys you can have at one time.
Envoy skills do have an impact on gameplay, but each skill impacts one or two very specific areas. No use in trying to use an agent with Combat as a primary skill as an envoy :wink: With that said, Officers and Operatives haven't been implemented yet, to give bonuses to your fleets and to wreak havoc in enemy systems respectively. When they are however, things will be different. :up:
Oh, and you *can* lose envoys if the system where they're stationed at gets hit (by bombardment or events). They can get killed or captured.
Like mentioned above, different skills have different effects in the game. You can even edit these skills if you wish, in \Data\Agents.xml, like making Picard a Master Spy. :lol:

In the old build after colonization, system started with highest researched tech, and in this build I have to upgrade every system from lvl 1, sometimes on random some buildings and not in every system, upgrade on itself to highest researched lvl.
Definitely its better to start with highest researched lvl. after colonization, faster gameplay, and not so tiresome.
Ah, you haven't looked closely at the starting conditions. :wink: In the SP start screen you can choose whether new colonies start with TL1 PFs (Canon) or your best TL (Best) under Starting Facilities.

That's it for now :D
Keep it coming! Thanks!

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Re: Feedback needed

Post by starkelja » Wed Jan 01, 2020 6:33 pm

Thanks for reply,

You gave me much to process :D . I didnt see a lot of stuff you mentioned, probably because I was to eager to play after all this years. :D

I was playing the 20191206 release, after my post I downloaded the patch.

After I got message for economic win (your economy dwarfed out others etc.) AI stopped colonizing and didn't developed colonies after that message, I didnt confirm my win. Maybe the problem is in 600+ turns, or with this victory condition...
After I loaded the game I got the same victory message again, I presume thats because I didnt confirm it first time.

How is AI concieved? Is there a limit for number of colonies ans ships it can manage? Or it just goes for domination with enough time given?

Oh and in 3 games that I played, Cardasians didn't have more than 2 planets don't know why.
And I did notice that when colonizing AI terraforms one planet and immediately colonizes, and it doesnt terraform the rest later.

Well now I am playing the patched versions got Klingons right next to me, made them my ally so I can monitor their progress.

And yes envoys do spawn slower in patched version :D

Well I will definitely put to the test how many turns the game can withstand :D
I like to play it slowly no rush, don't have many star trek enthusiasts around me so multiplayer isn't possible unless there is a global server. And therefore I depend on AI to make my gameplay challenging and thats possible if I let it develop as much as it can :D

Oh and I saw few posts about Borg being playable. Is it a mod, or was Borg temporarily removed?

How do I build starbase, I saw Starbase 1 enabled when tech got researched but cant find a ship which can build it.
How about an option for construction ships to replenish their stocks on closest planet with shipyard so they can be reusable.

I definitely need more time to check the entire game again from scratch, dont have it right now, but till the end of this year I probably will manage to get on top of every aspect of this game. :D

Happy New Year to whomever reads this
Cheers

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Re: Feedback needed

Post by Iceman » Thu Jan 02, 2020 8:29 am

starkelja wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 6:33 pm
After I got message for economic win (your economy dwarfed out others etc.) AI stopped colonizing and didn't developed colonies after that message, I didnt confirm my win. Maybe the problem is in 600+ turns, or with this victory condition...
Hmm, I'll have to check that out. Can't think of a reason for that to happen though.

After I loaded the game I got the same victory message again, I presume thats because I didnt confirm it first time.
Nope, I need to finish that code, the game needs to remember if you have already achieved any of the VCs. Not very high priority though.

How is AI concieved? Is there a limit for number of colonies ans ships it can manage? Or it just goes for domination with enough time given?
No limit on the number of colonies. It'll only stop colonizing if there are no eligible systems in range. As for ships, there are a couple of limits, to prevent it from overbuilding and going bankrupt :wink:

Oh and in 3 games that I played, Cardasians didn't have more than 2 planets don't know why.
That's odd. I assume they had systems in range that they could colonize? And those systems were not in another AI's territory?

And I did notice that when colonizing AI terraforms one planet and immediately colonizes, and it doesnt terraform the rest later.
It will colonize immediately if the system can hold all the pop in the colony ship, else it'll keep terraforming until it does.
It should terraform later, if it doesn't have other stuff to do with their colony ships. I've seen this happen when I tested it after coding it. I'll try to check this again.

Well I will definitely put to the test how many turns the game can withstand :D
:lol: Well, technically, the game can go on for as many turns as you wish. The problem is it will be dull once you finish researching everything, and have recruited all the available agents, etc.

And yes envoys do spawn slower in patched version :D
:up: If you guys think it could be tweaked further, LMK!

I like to play it slowly no rush, don't have many star trek enthusiasts around me so multiplayer isn't possible unless there is a global server. And therefore I depend on AI to make my gameplay challenging and thats possible if I let it develop as much as it can :D
You could try posting here in these forums asking if someone is interested in a MP game. Maybe we should have a dedicated thread for MP games.

Oh and I saw few posts about Borg being playable. Is it a mod, or was Borg temporarily removed?
In order to play the Borg, you need to go to the Settings screen (in the Main Menu), Gameplay tab, and check the Borg Playable button. They'll then become available as a playable civ in the SP start screen.

How do I build starbase, I saw Starbase 1 enabled when tech got researched but cant find a ship which can build it.
A Starbase is an upgrade to an Outpost. You need to get a construction ship to a sector with an Outpost and then choose the Build Station order. The more construction ships you have in the fleet, the faster the station gets completed.

How about an option for construction ships to replenish their stocks on closest planet with shipyard so they can be reusable.
The ship is converted into the station, hence it is scrapped upon completion.
If it were reusable, you could in theory play an entire game with only one construction ship :neutral:

I definitely need more time to check the entire game again from scratch, dont have it right now, but till the end of this year I probably will manage to get on top of every aspect of this game. :D
:up: Thanks for the feedback, it's precious! Keep it coming. And above all, have fun!

Happy New Year to whomever reads this
Cheers
HNY!

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Re: Feedback needed

Post by Iceman » Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:42 pm

Oh and in 3 games that I played, Cardasians didn't have more than 2 planets don't know why.
Just checked a savegame from a few days ago, and by turn 40 all empires had 4~6 colonies - oh, except the Roms which I was attacking as the Borg (test game) :twisted:
The Cards had Cardassia plus 3 colonies (one of them with a shipyard and an outpost, a really juicy system), and a science station on a Quasar.

After I got message for economic win (your economy dwarfed out others etc.) AI stopped colonizing and didn't developed colonies after that message, I didnt confirm my win. Maybe the problem is in 600+ turns, or with this victory condition...
This VC triggers at turn 500, and is meant to allow you to end (win) the game if none of the other VCs has been met yet. You can mod this value (and all others related to VCs) in the \Tables\GameOptionTables.txt file.

I'm curious, how did you verify that all other civs (I assume by AI you mean all AI controlled empires?) stopped colonizing and developing their colonies?

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Re: Feedback needed

Post by starkelja » Thu Jan 02, 2020 7:00 pm

Well didnt verify all of them, I had Dominion, Cardasians and Klingons discovered in one game, and I saw few planets not growing in pop, like in case of starvation, it continued on for few turns so I presumed they stoped developing, dont know if its a thing, and it happened after dwarfed message, so it could be related to it.

The Cardasians not colonizing probably is because of lack of eligible systems.

Its prety much ok for now, I will pay attention on the developement issue if it occures again, and will try to come with more data of how it happens if it happens.

What happened is that I can't get out of war with Klingons, they declared war on me I guess because I didn't send an envoy to them and their regard towards me is 0, but now they accept my cease fire proposal, and immediately go to war again. I can't send an envoy, and with credits it just takes to long. And I am around trun 400 my last envoy will die soon :D
I guess they declare war on me again for the same reason as first time, but its a loop now.

I guess I could give them continuous tribute and raise their regard and stop the war, but I dont want to give my money :D

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Re: Feedback needed

Post by Iceman » Thu Jan 02, 2020 8:38 pm

starkelja wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 7:00 pm
Well didnt verify all of them, I had Dominion, Cardasians and Klingons discovered in one game, and I saw few planets not growing in pop, like in case of starvation, it continued on for few turns so I presumed they stoped developing, dont know if its a thing, and it happened after dwarfed message, so it could be related to it.
When you say not growing in pop, you mean they do not reach their max pop? If it is starvation, pop should decrease, did you actually see that happen?
If you have a savegame where this happens, I'd like to see it, if you don't mind.

What happened is that I can't get out of war with Klingons, they declared war on me I guess because I didn't send an envoy to them and their regard towards me is 0, but now they accept my cease fire proposal, and immediately go to war again. I can't send an envoy, and with credits it just takes to long. And I am around trun 400 my last envoy will die soon :D
I guess they declare war on me again for the same reason as first time, but its a loop now.

I guess I could give them continuous tribute and raise their regard and stop the war, but I dont want to give my money :D
Heh.
They haven't DoW on you because you didn't send an envoy, that doesn't happen. You must have done something to piss them off... :wink: Shoot down their ships? Colony ships maybe?

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Re: Feedback needed

Post by Iceman » Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:55 pm

@ starkelja and Iscaran

So your posts got me thinking about AI expansion, and I went checking. AFAICT, the problem in your games is bad luck and an incomplete AI. Like I already mentioned, it will expand to whatever system it *can* - the problem is that it was not yet taught to *actively* try to expand its reach... it only does it passively. That is, it will build shipyards in colonies that are good for shipbuilding (to build defensive fleets), and stations in its best colonies (for defense) or in anomalies (for research). If (when) there are no (more) such systems nearby, it stagnates.

In Iscaran's game for example, the Roms colonized all 4 systems they could, but then they were surrounded by minor races and anomalies, and were on one of the edges of the galaxy. Since the AI can't yet offer diplomatic deals or send colony ships through wormholes, the Roms were effectively dead in the water. The Cards grabbed 3 systems, but the one that could potentially take them beyond a string of minor race systems was too small to build a shipyard or a station - because it was not fully terraformed. The other avenue for expansion required a colony ship II, which probably they do not have yet - due to another missing AI feature most likely, in that it uses a balanced research distribution, and doesn't research aggressively like a human player would. The Feds and Dom suffered from the same problems.
For some reason the AI didn't fully terraform its colonies - I'm trying to fix it right now. If it did, it would have continued expanding.
I'll keep you guys posted.

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Re: Feedback needed

Post by Iscaran » Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:31 pm

Ah - thank you for looking into this.

Perhaps the AI Expansion might not be too hard to code in, and additional "IF" no more system to colonize left "AND" the "view range" is not equal to EDGE of galaxy map...then build outpost/station in a direction which allows to open up "most undiscovered" sectors.

I know - writing this is "words" is easy - but :-) I believe in your skills to translate our common speech into this "machine garble" my CPU understands !

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Re: Feedback needed

Post by Iceman » Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:09 pm

Well, I appreciate your confidence in me, but I'm sure it will not be *that* easy. :mrgreen:
I'll see what I can do about it.

Meanwhile, I'll increase the range of colony ship I to 4 - that will help the AI a lot. When it stalls (after colonizing a couple of systems) it's usually because the closest eligible systems are 4 sectors away. It then needs to wait until (usually) a shipyard is built and powered to continue expanding; or until it gets to colony ship II, which is a few TLs away...

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Re: Feedback needed

Post by Iscaran » Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:41 pm

Perhaps an "automatic" range increase tied to Propulsion Tech Level like in original BOTF might be an idea ? Could also generally make the game (and certain research techs) more interesting.

AFAIK in BOTF there was also a minor Boost to weapon dmg based on Weapon Tech and boost to farming based on Biotech. (think it was 2% per Techlevel?)

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Re: Feedback needed

Post by Iceman » Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:51 pm

Iscaran wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:41 pm
Perhaps an "automatic" range increase tied to Propulsion Tech Level like in original BOTF might be an idea ? Could also generally make the game (and certain research techs) more interesting.
Yes, I considered that a long time ago. Propulsion is I think the only tech field that doesn't provide a TL-based bonus to something (can't recall if Construction does, and if so, to what - probably to hitpoints of structures during bombardment?).
Not sure if it would help with this specific situation though, as you can't just add Propulsion TL directly to range, it would get absurdly large, and it wouldn't affect colony ship I when starting at Early. Even if it was something like +1 for every 3 TLs or so, it would just overlap with the already increased range of the upgrades of that ship. Range in Supremacy is treated differently, each design has its own value.
But I see it having an effect in space combat (like Computers TL), in the speed/maneuverability/dodge of ships. Will look into this.

AFAIK in BOTF there was also a minor Boost to weapon dmg based on Weapon Tech and boost to farming based on Biotech. (think it was 2% per Techlevel?)
As for the 2%/TL bonuses to the outputs of manned Food/Energy/Industry facilities, I'm not sure they make much sense, since every TL unlocks an upgrade to the respective facility type. I do understand that the bonus would apply even if the facilities are not upgraded, BUT not having such a bonus is a stronger incentive for you to upgrade (or to somewhat force you to upgrade, if you prefer to see it that way).
In Supremacy there is a bonus to ground combat based on Weapons TL. Not for ship/batteries/stations though, as those have upgrades.

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Re: Feedback needed

Post by starkelja » Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:34 am

Iceman wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 8:38 pm
starkelja wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 7:00 pm
Well didnt verify all of them, I had Dominion, Cardasians and Klingons discovered in one game, and I saw few planets not growing in pop, like in case of starvation, it continued on for few turns so I presumed they stoped developing, dont know if its a thing, and it happened after dwarfed message, so it could be related to it.
When you say not growing in pop, you mean they do not reach their max pop? If it is starvation, pop should decrease, did you actually see that happen?
If you have a savegame where this happens, I'd like to see it, if you don't mind.

What happened is that I can't get out of war with Klingons, they declared war on me I guess because I didn't send an envoy to them and their regard towards me is 0, but now they accept my cease fire proposal, and immediately go to war again. I can't send an envoy, and with credits it just takes to long. And I am around trun 400 my last envoy will die soon :D
I guess they declare war on me again for the same reason as first time, but its a loop now.

I guess I could give them continuous tribute and raise their regard and stop the war, but I dont want to give my money :D
Heh.
They haven't DoW on you because you didn't send an envoy, that doesn't happen. You must have done something to piss them off... :wink: Shoot down their ships? Colony ships maybe?

I didnt att them we had an alliance treaty. And from alliance they declared war on me. Could it be because of our border overlap? And why do they keep declaring war on me after we sign peace?
I oversaved that game, but their pop was decreasing to some lvl, then increased and then decreased again, like there isn't enough farms for growth, but if I encounter this again I will send save to you.

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