Mirror Universe mod development
Moderator: thunderchero
Re: New Mirror Universe mod
Only gave it a cursory glance but I've spotted a few inconsistencies and oddities. Are you interested in that kind of feedback? If so, post here or send by PM?
Re: New Mirror Universe mod
Sorry, no time to make this pretty and all... time for bed. Hope it's understandable.
Shared Structures
Communications Grid
- can be built by N (minors)? (Non-Native Member System)
- 500 *percent* Bribe Resistance?
Mining Prison
- 2 versions, one for Klingons and one for the rest, but exactly the same stats?
- Development? Or Defense like the Dilithium Refinery and the Singularity Plant?
Tactical Training Center
- Development? Or Defense?
- Cardassians and Ferengi, but Cardassians already have Central Command so they get 3 training facilities?
Protectorate Headquarters
- can be built by N? (Subjugated System)
Phoenix Facility
- Development? Or Defense?
Advanced Replicators
- also available for N? They have Basic Replicators already
Supply Line Coordination Center
- Research? Or Defense?
Ship Integration Facility
- Research? Or Defense?
- the lack of +1 Morale I assume is intended?
(I also assume the differences to vanilla in some buildings are also intended)
Cardassians
Type 3 Shadow Team
- according to the "formula", the output should be 52, not 50
Terran
Type 1 Databank
- according to the "formula", the output should be 6, not 10
Type 1 University
- according to the "formula", the output should be 12, not 10
Ferengi
Machining Guild
- the "formula" seems to be incorrect in the transition from Class 1 to Class 2
Romulans
Fabricators
- the "formula" seems to be incorrect in the transition from Mark I to Mark II
Minor Races
Acamarian Clan Hall
- Defense? Or Development?
Breen Thermal Research center
- Energy? Or Research?
Anticans Energy Probe
- Energy? Or Research?
Betazoid Paradise
- Defense? Or Development?
- +1 Morale EW plus +1 Morale local?
Gorn Trade network
- Defense? Or Development?
Dilithium moons of Edo
- Energy? Or Development?
Ktarian casino and resort
- +1 Morale EW plus +1 Morale local?
Maquis Raiding team
- Development? Or Defense?
Orion Syndicate
- Research? Or Defense?
Nausicaans
- both Ground Combat? (one with +1 Morale)
Pakleds Dilithium Mine
- Energy? Or Defense?
Sheliak Temporal Defense Grid
- Defense? Or Research?
- 65 energy for 20% (total) Research, vs 200 energy for 20% Biotech (Bioengineering Center)?!
Tholian Assembly
- Development? Or Defense?
Tamarians Darmok weapon probing center
- Food? Or Research?
Xindi Council
- Defense? Or Development?
- +1 Morale EW plus +1 Morale local?
Shared Structures
Communications Grid
- can be built by N (minors)? (Non-Native Member System)
- 500 *percent* Bribe Resistance?
Mining Prison
- 2 versions, one for Klingons and one for the rest, but exactly the same stats?
- Development? Or Defense like the Dilithium Refinery and the Singularity Plant?
Tactical Training Center
- Development? Or Defense?
- Cardassians and Ferengi, but Cardassians already have Central Command so they get 3 training facilities?
Protectorate Headquarters
- can be built by N? (Subjugated System)
Phoenix Facility
- Development? Or Defense?
Advanced Replicators
- also available for N? They have Basic Replicators already
Supply Line Coordination Center
- Research? Or Defense?
Ship Integration Facility
- Research? Or Defense?
- the lack of +1 Morale I assume is intended?
(I also assume the differences to vanilla in some buildings are also intended)
Cardassians
Type 3 Shadow Team
- according to the "formula", the output should be 52, not 50
Terran
Type 1 Databank
- according to the "formula", the output should be 6, not 10
Type 1 University
- according to the "formula", the output should be 12, not 10
Ferengi
Machining Guild
- the "formula" seems to be incorrect in the transition from Class 1 to Class 2
Romulans
Fabricators
- the "formula" seems to be incorrect in the transition from Mark I to Mark II
Minor Races
Acamarian Clan Hall
- Defense? Or Development?
Breen Thermal Research center
- Energy? Or Research?
Anticans Energy Probe
- Energy? Or Research?
Betazoid Paradise
- Defense? Or Development?
- +1 Morale EW plus +1 Morale local?
Gorn Trade network
- Defense? Or Development?
Dilithium moons of Edo
- Energy? Or Development?
Ktarian casino and resort
- +1 Morale EW plus +1 Morale local?
Maquis Raiding team
- Development? Or Defense?
Orion Syndicate
- Research? Or Defense?
Nausicaans
- both Ground Combat? (one with +1 Morale)
Pakleds Dilithium Mine
- Energy? Or Defense?
Sheliak Temporal Defense Grid
- Defense? Or Research?
- 65 energy for 20% (total) Research, vs 200 energy for 20% Biotech (Bioengineering Center)?!
Tholian Assembly
- Development? Or Defense?
Tamarians Darmok weapon probing center
- Food? Or Research?
Xindi Council
- Defense? Or Development?
- +1 Morale EW plus +1 Morale local?
- thunderchero
- Site Administrator aka Fleet Admiral
- Posts: 7963
- Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2008 2:00 am
- Location: On a three month training mission, in command of the USS Valiant.
Re: New Mirror Universe mod
Hi Iceman,
thanks for input.
"can be built by N (minors)?" this in needed race on system built by a controlling major. also those last columns I added and my not be that accurate or up to date.
I also noticed those duplicate structures this is very rough draft trying to just fill up empty slots
that said yes I need to work on categories.
example;
same thing for main structures values I just used type 1, 3, 5, 7, 9 upgrades so if pattern is off it was off in vanilla I guess. but would need to double check.
Thanks again for list I will definitively use it
thanks for input.
"can be built by N (minors)?" this in needed race on system built by a controlling major. also those last columns I added and my not be that accurate or up to date.
I also noticed those duplicate structures this is very rough draft trying to just fill up empty slots
that said yes I need to work on categories.
example;
this is an original structure and values lolCommunications Grid
- can be built by N (minors)? (Non-Native Member System)
- 500 *percent* Bribe Resistance?
same thing for main structures values I just used type 1, 3, 5, 7, 9 upgrades so if pattern is off it was off in vanilla I guess. but would need to double check.
Thanks again for list I will definitively use it
Re: New Mirror Universe mod
The vanilla Comms Grid is 500 *percent* (notice emphasis) BR? I don't think so, that was my point.
You're welcome!
You're welcome!
- Spocks-cuddly-tribble
- Code Master
- Posts: 1961
- Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 2:00 am
Re: New Mirror Universe mod
The Communication Grid never worked as intended in original BotF. He plans on using the "Bribe Resistance Fix (advanced)" viewtopic.php?f=189&t=12#p32777
---
Here come my suggestions resp. offers for the multi-installer /updating mods project:
- I can look into completing extended system bonuses and array (we need icons on top of sun animation for Asteroid, Asteroid belt dilithium, Dilithium) and provide patcher ready codes (this enables some of your suggestions on modifying random events) plus gives some inspirations for new special buildings
- I can also look into lowering the AI colonize, Tform & buildbase thresholds so that the AI will finally colonize more systems (might require increasing the stellar objects density/amount, not only for irregular)
---
Here come my suggestions resp. offers for the multi-installer /updating mods project:
- I can look into completing extended system bonuses and array (we need icons on top of sun animation for Asteroid, Asteroid belt dilithium, Dilithium) and provide patcher ready codes (this enables some of your suggestions on modifying random events) plus gives some inspirations for new special buildings
- I can also look into lowering the AI colonize, Tform & buildbase thresholds so that the AI will finally colonize more systems (might require increasing the stellar objects density/amount, not only for irregular)
I don't know how many bugs is too many but that point is reached somewhere before however many in BotF is.
Re: New Mirror Universe mod
I know, or I suspected such. But again, 500%...
From your link:
From your link:
(highlight mine)2.) In edifice.bst change the output value of the communication grid from 500 to (for example) 30% i.e. effect of gifts is reduced to 70%. Needless to say the max value is 100% bribe resistance.
- Spocks-cuddly-tribble
- Code Master
- Posts: 1961
- Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 2:00 am
Re: New Mirror Universe mod
Yes, it reads funny (of course, as stated, the building output values are not set yet). It's just about the scheme at this point i.e. suggestions for new special buildings.
Btw the real fun part starts with every iteration of the question about the gift effect divisor:
Btw the real fun part starts with every iteration of the question about the gift effect divisor:
You don't mind if I send the inquirers over to you? (I'm really running out of ideas how to explain this one...)The multiplier is 0.0004 due to the skipped default effect divisor (25 see above) i.e. *0.04 *0.01(%). Thus e.g. to get a divisor of 50 the float value must be 0.0002.
(...) note that the old divisor at position 407B75 has been removed due to code changes, but doubling the new multilpier does the same effect as halving the old divisor would do (and vice versa) since / X = * 1/X
I don't know how many bugs is too many but that point is reached somewhere before however many in BotF is.
Re: New Mirror Universe mod
Actually, reading your posts (not yours specifically, but all coders here in general) makes my head hurt.
Not that I don't understand Assembly (I actually taught a bit of that many many years ago), but I never really kept up with code changes to BotF, and so I get lost with all the references to past changes and fixes and whatnot.
And I understand perfectly well how someone that doesn't know Assembly might not understand what you guys post because most of the time it *is* cryptic. Even the comments in the code are not at all clear.
And worst of all, those threads could use some cleaning up, as sometimes it seems there is contradictory or outdated information. But obviously, that would require time, lots of it, and I'm sure no one wants to do that.
The gift effect divisor, hmm, can't recall how I implemented that in Supremacy, but I probably quit trying to understand it too. J/k, I think Supremacy tries to mimic it for the most part. But it's not easy to digest all the numbers.
Your first sentence needs context, but the second one is pretty obvious. For someone that has a good grasp on maths of course.
The difficulty might be you guys using a language appropriate to people familiar with years of development (of this game) and assuming readers will know exactly what you're talking about? The developers obviously have all that info stored in their brains, but the casual reader/coder probably won't. I know I've thought more than once "What the **** is he talking about?!" And having to read wads of text, using the Universal Translator, to have a clue.
Re Bribe Resistance bonus, IIRC in Supremacy what I did was subtract that value (default 500 in the Comms Grid) from the offered amount, and use the result to calculate the effect.
BTW, a question that came up while checking the list. The "Income on Trade Route" bonus (Ferengi Tower of Commerce) is listed as EW; I'll need to check in Supremacy, but I don't think we have it as being EW. Can't recall, is it EW in vanilla (affects all TRs in the empire), or local (just the ones originating/ending in that system)?
Not that I don't understand Assembly (I actually taught a bit of that many many years ago), but I never really kept up with code changes to BotF, and so I get lost with all the references to past changes and fixes and whatnot.
And I understand perfectly well how someone that doesn't know Assembly might not understand what you guys post because most of the time it *is* cryptic. Even the comments in the code are not at all clear.
And worst of all, those threads could use some cleaning up, as sometimes it seems there is contradictory or outdated information. But obviously, that would require time, lots of it, and I'm sure no one wants to do that.
The gift effect divisor, hmm, can't recall how I implemented that in Supremacy, but I probably quit trying to understand it too. J/k, I think Supremacy tries to mimic it for the most part. But it's not easy to digest all the numbers.
Your first sentence needs context, but the second one is pretty obvious. For someone that has a good grasp on maths of course.
The difficulty might be you guys using a language appropriate to people familiar with years of development (of this game) and assuming readers will know exactly what you're talking about? The developers obviously have all that info stored in their brains, but the casual reader/coder probably won't. I know I've thought more than once "What the **** is he talking about?!" And having to read wads of text, using the Universal Translator, to have a clue.
Re Bribe Resistance bonus, IIRC in Supremacy what I did was subtract that value (default 500 in the Comms Grid) from the offered amount, and use the result to calculate the effect.
BTW, a question that came up while checking the list. The "Income on Trade Route" bonus (Ferengi Tower of Commerce) is listed as EW; I'll need to check in Supremacy, but I don't think we have it as being EW. Can't recall, is it EW in vanilla (affects all TRs in the empire), or local (just the ones originating/ending in that system)?
- thunderchero
- Site Administrator aka Fleet Admiral
- Posts: 7963
- Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2008 2:00 am
- Location: On a three month training mission, in command of the USS Valiant.
Re: New Mirror Universe mod
sent you a PM with some Asteroid, Asteroid belt dilithium tga'sSpocks-cuddly-tribble wrote: ↑Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:04 pm - I can look into completing extended system bonuses and array (we need icons on top of sun animation for Asteroid, Asteroid belt dilithium, Dilithium) and provide patcher ready codes (this enables some of your suggestions on modifying random events) plus gives some inspirations for new special buildings
- I can also look into lowering the AI colonize, Tform & buildbase thresholds so that the AI will finally colonize more systems (might require increasing the stellar objects density/amount, not only for irregular)
here is what new icons look like in game
Asteroid belt Asteroid belt dilithium as for lowereing the AI thresholds, I am for anything that improve AI
anyway you forget Mirror Universe mod only has irregular galaxies
- Spocks-cuddly-tribble
- Code Master
- Posts: 1961
- Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 2:00 am
Re: New Mirror Universe mod
@ Iceman
Thanks for double checking this stuff. The coding notes certainly are cryptic (even to me) but this one is just about maths i.e. divsision vs. floating point multiplication, with the little-endian format of the 2+ byte values being an all-time editing obstacle in BotF.
A long time ago I spent some hours cleaning up topics by editing posts and deleting tons of outdated and/or spam posts. You don't even want to imagine how many threads looked before that...
"Income on Trade Route" bonus is empire wide in BotF (looking at Gowron's posts).
@ thunderchero
I'll see what I can do, but can't give an official assurance at this time (BotF code sucks just too much to get things done quickly).
Debris graphic works, but will it be intuitively recognisable as asteroid and/or as asteroid belt?
And do you want asteroid belt dilithium being simply the coexistence of the asteroid and dilithium (i.e. only 3 graphics -> asteroid, dil. or both) or a full bitmask feature (7 graphics required)?
Thanks for double checking this stuff. The coding notes certainly are cryptic (even to me) but this one is just about maths i.e. divsision vs. floating point multiplication, with the little-endian format of the 2+ byte values being an all-time editing obstacle in BotF.
A long time ago I spent some hours cleaning up topics by editing posts and deleting tons of outdated and/or spam posts. You don't even want to imagine how many threads looked before that...
"Income on Trade Route" bonus is empire wide in BotF (looking at Gowron's posts).
@ thunderchero
I'll see what I can do, but can't give an official assurance at this time (BotF code sucks just too much to get things done quickly).
Debris graphic works, but will it be intuitively recognisable as asteroid and/or as asteroid belt?
And do you want asteroid belt dilithium being simply the coexistence of the asteroid and dilithium (i.e. only 3 graphics -> asteroid, dil. or both) or a full bitmask feature (7 graphics required)?
I don't know how many bugs is too many but that point is reached somewhere before however many in BotF is.
Re: New Mirror Universe mod
Well, I deal with that kind of difficulty on a daily basis, teaching electronics. And I'm usually not very successful too.Spocks-cuddly-tribble wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:12 pm @ Iceman
Thanks for double checking this stuff. The coding notes certainly are cryptic (even to me) but this one is just about maths i.e. divsision vs. floating point multiplication, with the little-endian format of the 2+ byte values being an all-time editing obstacle in BotF.
Yes, I did notice that there was an attempt at collecting information in the relevant places. I can only imagine how much work it was. My guess is you probably wanted to delete most of it and only leave the really important stuff. I know I wish it would have been done.A long time ago I spent some hours cleaning up topics by editing posts and deleting tons of outdated and/or spam posts. You don't even want to imagine how many threads looked before that...
Thx. I'll do that in Supremacy too."Income on Trade Route" bonus is empire wide in BotF (looking at Gowron's posts).
- Spocks-cuddly-tribble
- Code Master
- Posts: 1961
- Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 2:00 am
Re: New Mirror Universe mod
I uploaded two untested AI patches for the issues:thunderchero wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:50 pmas for lowereing the AI thresholds, I am for anything that improve AI
https://workupload.com/file/jXqaENCq [EDIT: link updated with corrected patches]
Now I see the didactic flaw. I explained the multiplicative inverse, since I didn't use a calculator. The Pakled-proof instruction is simply: Divide 0.01 by your new wanted divisor and enter the result at the specified address in little-endian format.
I don't know how many bugs is too many but that point is reached somewhere before however many in BotF is.
- thunderchero
- Site Administrator aka Fleet Admiral
- Posts: 7963
- Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2008 2:00 am
- Location: On a three month training mission, in command of the USS Valiant.
Re: New Mirror Universe mod
Hi Everyone,
I am trying to get some progress on this mod this week I am still stuck on 4 Ferengi structures
done "Citizens Protection Bunkers" 40% Ground Combat (Empire Wide) home system, one per empire
50% Construction Research (Empire Wide) native system, one per empire
2% Research (Empire Wide) native system, one per system
done "Mercenary Training Facility" 115 Crew Training (Local) native system, one per empire
all I need is structure name (description would be a bonus)
remember this is mirror universe so they do not have to be cannon
any good ideas?
Edit; I just had an idea Ferengi/Breen alliance as a major. This would make them a real major power.....
I just don't know if I want to make that major of changes this late in development of this mod.
I am trying to get some progress on this mod this week I am still stuck on 4 Ferengi structures
done "Citizens Protection Bunkers" 40% Ground Combat (Empire Wide) home system, one per empire
50% Construction Research (Empire Wide) native system, one per empire
2% Research (Empire Wide) native system, one per system
done "Mercenary Training Facility" 115 Crew Training (Local) native system, one per empire
all I need is structure name (description would be a bonus)
remember this is mirror universe so they do not have to be cannon
any good ideas?
Edit; I just had an idea Ferengi/Breen alliance as a major. This would make them a real major power.....
I just don't know if I want to make that major of changes this late in development of this mod.
Re: New Mirror Universe mod
Don't all these buildings, being "common" to all empires, kind of de-characterize them?
Of those you mention, the 1st (and the last) I can only see as being some kind of mercenary (or private military contractors, the modern version) related buildings.
Mercenary Contract Office, Training Center, whatever.
The last one, an Academy the Ferengi pay other races to attend, to crew their starships.
But this is what minor races are for, mostly.
Could be interesting to have these have a Credits upkeep instead of Energy.
Of those you mention, the 1st (and the last) I can only see as being some kind of mercenary (or private military contractors, the modern version) related buildings.
Mercenary Contract Office, Training Center, whatever.
The last one, an Academy the Ferengi pay other races to attend, to crew their starships.
But this is what minor races are for, mostly.
Could be interesting to have these have a Credits upkeep instead of Energy.
- thunderchero
- Site Administrator aka Fleet Admiral
- Posts: 7963
- Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2008 2:00 am
- Location: On a three month training mission, in command of the USS Valiant.
Re: New Mirror Universe mod
each major has 10-12 exclusive structures
"mercenary" is good though I could use that.