Minor races and terraforming

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erazortt
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Re: Minor races and terraforming

Post by erazortt » Mon May 25, 2020 7:40 pm

Ok if your numbers turn out to be too restrictive, I think a better representaion of an alternative would perhaps be simply:
TC6 1.0
TC5 0.9
TC4 0.8
TC3 0.7
TC2 0.6
TC1 0.5

That appears more suitable for numbers in an array ;)

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Re: Minor races and terraforming

Post by Iceman » Mon May 25, 2020 7:59 pm

And looks really tidy (I like tidy), AND is also easily converted into a simple formula.

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Re: Minor races and terraforming

Post by erazortt » Mon May 25, 2020 8:07 pm

I would suggest that in case we stay with your values to increase the subjugation multiplier to 0.75. While, if we move to this more generous table we could leave it at 0.5. I don’t want the subjugation to be too restrictive.

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Re: Minor races and terraforming

Post by Iceman » Tue May 26, 2020 6:52 am

erazortt wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 7:05 pm
So these civs will not be able to evolve at all, at any time in the game. That would be extreme! But I mean, yeah sure why not, would be something new! However, I really think that the user (and AI) should not be even able to even build the research labs in the case the multiplier is as low as 0. These civs should really have some huge systems, like at least 350 or so. And even for the TC2 civs with 0.2, this is so low I doubt that in effect it is much better than 0. Perhaps this could be 0.25 instead.
The AI for TC1 minors doesn't build labs, ever :wink: It only handles their food production, so as to not starve.
TC2 minors do, but it's not like, when independent, they have much else to do :wink:

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Re: Minor races and terraforming

Post by erazortt » Tue May 26, 2020 2:25 pm

Iceman wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 11:54 am
That value was doubled (and a few others), we can revert that change. I just didn't want them to provide a good bonus *and* a bunch of research. Especially when the bonus is research-related... same for intel.
So what do we do with this energy thing? I'm again having the trill in a tiny system unable to power their building. I think returning to the old energy values and gurantieeing that TC5 have smallish systems would be ok right? I will go over all the systems this weekend, but this then this energy thing must really be tackeled.

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Re: Minor races and terraforming

Post by Iceman » Tue May 26, 2020 2:40 pm

Ok, reverted it back to the old value. I think I only changed that one and the Vulcan Science Academy, which I'll also revert.

edit: nope, I also increased the Cytherians and the Zahl.

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Re: Minor races and terraforming

Post by erazortt » Wed May 27, 2020 3:28 am

Iceman wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 11:14 am
Last night I was trying to get the Intel screen to show you info on all the empires - a cheat, sure, but the Intel screen is not yet working anyway. It'd be useful to assess the progress of the AI empires relative to your own. Couldn't make it work though.
This screen would be really helpful now to check that the RPs are being calculated correctly.. Since I have no way of checking what actually happens in the account of the toal number of RPs in the minor. :/
So currently I have not been given any upgrade option for a TC3 civ. I had them however only 30 rounds under my rule with labs running at max, so I am not sure there. I will continue with this today evening.
What does the AI actually do with the research distribution in different fields? Do they leave it at being uniform for all 6 research areas? What happens with this setting when they join an empire?

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Re: Minor races and terraforming

Post by Iceman » Wed May 27, 2020 4:07 am

That's one thing I have as a ToDo in the code. The AI *does* set the distribution of research to a single field, but I'm not sure what happens when they join. Should be the same, but will have to check. I'll do that this afternoon.
It may be faster to test this with ResearchRate set to Fast.
TC3 is 50%.

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Re: Minor races and terraforming

Post by erazortt » Wed May 27, 2020 8:51 am

Iceman wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 4:07 am
The AI *does* set the distribution of research to a single field...
And it changes it from round to round? Or how to they improve in other fields over time?
It may be faster to test this with ResearchRate set to Fast.
TC3 is 50%.
Yup, I was stupid enough to have it on slow... :evil:
What are again the multipliers for the three speed settings? Normal is 1, and slow is 2/3? And what is fast?

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Re: Minor races and terraforming

Post by Iceman » Wed May 27, 2020 9:32 am

They choose one field and stick with it until it levels up, then choose another field, etc.
They always complete a TL before moving to the next.

Heh, no worries, I just uploaded a patch that should help.
The multipliers are 0.65, 1.0, 1.5. You can change them in the \Tables\GameOptionTables.txt file. Not mid-game though.

The new patch has a couple of changes:
- changed the formula for research of minors to the one in the top post of this page; also logged their progress so you can check how their research is being allocated - check the \Logs\Log.txt file [works in your on-going game]
- Implemented the GarrisonTraining bonus; changed the Jem'Hadar Barracks to a SubjugatedSystem building, with +2 Garrison / turn and -1 Morale (temporary, for testing) [needs a new game]
- reverted the energy cost of the ResearchEmpireWide buildings [needs a new game]

LMK how it goes!

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Re: Minor races and terraforming

Post by erazortt » Wed May 27, 2020 2:42 pm

Ok with this I could check. I'm pretty sure that it does not work. Just so that I know, where is the boundery for leveling up Biotech to level 2? What are the buonderies in general?

Membered them in turn 41, thay had almost no research done up tp this point.

19:59:13.223 [42] INFO General - --------------- TURN 41 ---------------
19:59:13.751 [42] INFO General - Kreetassans Own research 25, Cumulative points 275
19:59:13.753 [42] WARN General - Kreetassans - Field BioTech Dist 100% Points 25
19:59:13.753 [42] WARN General - Kreetassans - Field Computers Dist 0% Points 0
19:59:13.754 [42] WARN General - Kreetassans - Field Construction Dist 0% Points 0
19:59:13.754 [42] WARN General - Kreetassans - Field Energy Dist 0% Points 0
19:59:13.755 [42] WARN General - Kreetassans - Field Propulsion Dist 0% Points 0
19:59:13.755 [42] WARN General - Kreetassans - Field Weapons Dist 0% Points 0
19:59:13.757 [42] INFO General - Kreetassans Final Cumulative points 300
19:59:16.196 [42] DEBUG General - Serialized 443,295 bytes of data in 00:00:01.9556918
19:59:17.654 [15] DEBUG General - Serialized 822,172 bytes of data in 00:00:03.3797935
19:59:17.853 [ClientEventLoop] DEBUG General - Deserialized 443,295 bytes of data in 00:00:01.4983588
20:01:02.094 [28] DEBUG General - Serialized 1,275 bytes of data in 00:00:00.0010472
20:01:02.105 [20] DEBUG General - Deserialized 1,275 bytes of data in 00:00:00.0006951


in turn 79 their reserach was still in biotech, without any results showing. With concentrating all research into one single field, they for sure should have leveled up already.
20:39:20.142 [54] INFO General - --------------- TURN 79 ---------------
20:39:20.422 [54] INFO General - Kreetassans Own research 262, Cumulative points 5165
20:39:20.423 [54] WARN General - Kreetassans - Field BioTech Dist 100% Points 262
20:39:20.423 [54] WARN General - Kreetassans - Field Computers Dist 0% Points 0
20:39:20.423 [54] WARN General - Kreetassans - Field Construction Dist 0% Points 0
20:39:20.423 [54] WARN General - Kreetassans - Field Energy Dist 0% Points 0
20:39:20.424 [54] WARN General - Kreetassans - Field Propulsion Dist 0% Points 0
20:39:20.424 [54] WARN General - Kreetassans - Field Weapons Dist 0% Points 0
20:39:20.424 [54] INFO General - Kreetassans Final Cumulative points 5427
20:39:21.778 [25] DEBUG General - Serialized 456,802 bytes of data in 00:00:01.1776358
20:39:23.335 [ClientEventLoop] DEBUG General - Deserialized 456,802 bytes of data in 00:00:01.2720191
20:39:25.444 [34] DEBUG General - Serialized 838,308 bytes of data in 00:00:04.8432744

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Re: Minor races and terraforming

Post by Iceman » Wed May 27, 2020 3:45 pm

Level 2 is 500 RPs.
\Data\ResearchMatrix.xml

What's your ResearchRate? The Kreetassans are TC3, they should have a modifier of 0.7, yet they produced 25 RPs in the 1st turn.

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Re: Minor races and terraforming

Post by erazortt » Wed May 27, 2020 3:47 pm

Iceman wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 3:45 pm
Level 2 is 500 RPs.
\Data\ResearchMatrix.xml
Oh ok, Thanks!
What's your ResearchRate? The Kreetassans are TC3, they should have a modifier of 0.7, yet they produced 25 RPs in the 1st turn.
Yea, I set the research speed to fast: 0.7*1.5=1.05

Can you debug while running? I can provide the savegame at round 48.

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Re: Minor races and terraforming

Post by Iceman » Wed May 27, 2020 4:44 pm

Investigating the issue...

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Re: Minor races and terraforming

Post by Iceman » Wed May 27, 2020 4:48 pm

Could you test breaking membership with them and then checking them again (maybe membering them again), to see if they advance (with all those accumulated points) while independent?

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