Minor race advancement

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Re: Minor race advancement

Post by Iceman » Mon May 25, 2020 8:00 pm

Yep, I need to go to bed too... too tired.

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Re: Supremacy new release

Post by Malioc » Tue May 26, 2020 3:14 am

erazortt wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 1:03 pm
Iceman wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 12:02 pm
In this case you get their higher tech labs, which are already built :wink:
True, that might actually already be enough.
Malioc wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 12:26 pm
In the above scenarios the technoligical gap between empire and minor gets bigger with time. Logically that shouldn't happen as long as their is any kind of interaction between the cultures.
In earth history they has always been a quick adaption of technology even when their was mere trading relationship.
Ok yeah thats right.
I think, it makes a lot sense, that an underdeveloped member "wastes" a lot of research for adaption to the empires logical standard. As long as they do research. This should go on until they reach that standard.
That sounds interesting, and appears realistic, yes. However, this does really mean, that the minor will explode in research.
For erazortts example:
And there is the explosion! :mrgreen: Your factor 10 does really kick ass! I was in for a more cautions change.. And I'm not sure that every civ will necessarily be willing to adapt that fast. We say civs, but species would be more appropriate, so your comparison with different human civs might not be cutting it. Looking at Star Trek, at least in the Federation they all remain having their identity. Low tech civs seems to be handeled only very cautiously. So I'm not sure there should really be such an explosion.
With subjugation I personally would do it either:
1. The same way.
2. The minor has the tech of the empire forced upon. Then you can instantly build your current tech level (without unique buildings?). The logic would then be, that the Klingon have to eat that goddamn processing plants. Shouldn't have messed with the Dominion, now they are on vegetarian diet. ;-)
Again looking at Star Trek, you might be on to something. Looking how other major civs handle subjugated minors, there I have the impression that indeed everything is forced upon them.

I at least need more thinking.
Thanks! =)

Are you proposing, that the factor could be flexible? If so, I find your idea appealing.
An intelligent and willing race should really be quicker in adepting (Vulkan,  Trill, 10 or even higher), while another may naturally need longer (Kazon) or are stubborn (Malcorian), thus having maybe even just "1" [only lost RP goes to adaption], ultimately making research unproductive.
To have a (secret?) unique factor would be a great and realistic way to calculate that!

As for the subjagation, I lean towards 2. (tech forced upon, no RP reduction aside by low morale).

There would still remain a question though: If a minor are assimiliated once, can they "go back" when someone frees them?
Say, the Cardassians membered Antica and invaded Selay ;-) ... Now, your Federation invades Antica and frees Selay, what would happen?

The Anticans would have Fed tech at Fed level forced upon them "We bring them democracy"-style. The Selay however now have Cardassian buildings.
You can still build the unique structures, but as for the rest...
- should they go back to the old tech level and style?
- do they continue to use the Cardassian buildings and freely substitute them (in time) with Fed level/style?
- do they keep Cardassian tech level and go back to their old style?

Great discussion though. It's fun. =)

To go full circle with my other idea a few posts back (morale factors for minors staying loyal to the empire), I'd like to add a few things:

1. I used races as example for their trades. However, I believe IT would add a LOT depth when the race-related morale factors would be unique for each minor.
Meaning, the Vulcans are spiritual and focused on research. Other spiritual races may have no interest in technology at all (above "1"-type minors)
In that case they may even get negative research incentive.

2. We talked about minors STAYING in the empire and I spoke in favor of making it morale-related. However I would even go a step further: The factors could even become a key to the willingness of a minor joining in the first place:
- by adding/reducing reputation
- as a base demand for a minor to join.

Examples:
Both, Bolians and Pakled, are Deceivers.
Bolians may be more peaceloving, thus liking Federation more than warfaring Klingons.
Pakled may not care about that, but about technological dominance. They could prefer Klingon because of a higher tech superiority.
Both minors may prefer an ally with a big fleet to protect them. Also Bolians may appreciate an empire with good Intelligence.
Bolians will only agree on a membership, when the faction has a certain strength. Pakled will only member, when the faction has a certain tech level.

To summerize and construct a possible scenarion:
- Bolians and Pakled agree both on an OB with Fed and Klingons
- Bolians are reluctant to sign an AT with the Klingons due to their recent war with the Dominion. Yet, with money/Diplomat this could change.
- Bolians ultimately sign an AT with the Fed, also thanks to their good Intelligence. But they don't sign a membership, despite much trust and reputation. Because the Federation has a very small fleet, thus being a lousy protector. ;-)
- The Pakled on the other hand sign a membership, because the Klingons are technologically far more advanced. Their big fleet makes this easier/cheaper.

Overall, not only will that make a "bad marriage" harder to obtain, it will be harder to achieve such a relationship in the first place. As Federation you may want to integrate the Nausicaans or Sheliak. But ultimately it may be more practical to obtain a good relationship (with OB or AT) while showing no weakness - or invade/erradicate them.
Same for Klingons, who may talk pacifists in joining the empire during a peaceful era, but will eventually lose them when they're constantly conquering other planets.

Again, that's just a complex idea/approach I find intriguing. ;-)

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Re: Supremacy new release

Post by Malioc » Tue May 26, 2020 3:26 am

Iceman wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 1:14 pm
2. But when the Klingons subjugate a minor race system, the inhabitants are still the minor race (only, no Klingons - the work force I mean). That's why forcing Hunting Grounds on the native population doesn't make sense. Or Processing Plants or any other "farm" type. Or any other PF type for that matter.
The "problem" is just food, isn't it?
I can see, that e.g. stone-eaters can't just switch to hunting grounds. ;-)
With plants/flash one might argue, that vegetarians now have new eating culture forced upon them. Of course, these Hunting Grounds would produce (different?) flash that isn't eatable for the inhabitants. Still, their culture is replaced against their will.

Totally agree, that minors wouldn't freely change their diet after a membership, though.

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Re: Minor race advancement

Post by Malioc » Tue May 26, 2020 3:28 am

Iceman wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 4:01 pm
You mean other than
- if you wipe them and recolonize, you lose their special building, and all the pop and infrastructure, and have to start over
- if you subjugate them, you lose their special building, and have to deal with the morale problem
- to have them join, you need to spend a bunch of dole
?

At least in theory.
I think, this already works. Except for the dominant strategy "membership", which is overpowered. I totally see, that gaining/keeping members should be more challenging.

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Re: Minor race advancement

Post by Malioc » Tue May 26, 2020 4:48 am

Can't do testing atm.
I'm on vacation for a week. =)

erazortt wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 4:21 pm
So when subjugating you lose the special buildings? Was this also like that in botf? Crap, I wasn't aware of that! Isn't this then too harsh to also decrease the RPs for the empire to half? Perhaps 0.75 would be better in this case.
Wasn't this way in original BotF, but I like it.

As for decreased research... Personally I would not reduce their RP in addition to the reduction because of low morale.

With members it may "cost" output for a while. But after the gap is closed, they will get 100% RP. So, in long-term membership is still more rewarding.

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Re: Supremacy new release

Post by Iceman » Tue May 26, 2020 5:23 am

Malioc wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 3:26 am
Iceman wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 1:14 pm
2. But when the Klingons subjugate a minor race system, the inhabitants are still the minor race (only, no Klingons - the work force I mean). That's why forcing Hunting Grounds on the native population doesn't make sense. Or Processing Plants or any other "farm" type. Or any other PF type for that matter.
The "problem" is just food, isn't it?
I can see, that e.g. stone-eaters can't just switch to hunting grounds. ;-)
With plants/flash one might argue, that vegetarians now have new eating culture forced upon them. Of course, these Hunting Grounds would produce (different?) flash that isn't eatable for the inhabitants. Still, their culture is replaced against their will.

Totally agree, that minors wouldn't freely change their diet after a membership, though.
Not just the food, really. Food is just the most striking one.
Notice that the population, that is, those that will actually eat what the hunting grounds produce, are locals, not Klingons. Meaning they have to go *hunt* their food now, and for what reason? None. There are no Klingons living there. So they would completely rebuild the infrastructure of the entire system for exactly what?
As for the other production types, like already mentioned, is it actually wise to upgrade a *subjugated* system to your top tech, with the risk of it rebelling or being bribed away or what have you?

Obviously, being a game, you want to maximize your output. :wink:
But a small measure of "sensible" doesn't hurt?

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Re: Minor race advancement

Post by Iceman » Tue May 26, 2020 5:40 am

Malioc wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 3:28 am
Iceman wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 4:01 pm
You mean other than
- if you wipe them and recolonize, you lose their special building, and all the pop and infrastructure, and have to start over
- if you subjugate them, you lose their special building, and have to deal with the morale problem
- to have them join, you need to spend a bunch of dole
?

At least in theory.
I think, this already works. Except for the dominant strategy "membership", which is overpowered. I totally see, that gaining/keeping members should be more challenging.
Now for the positives:
- if you wipe them and recolonize, you gain the ability to build Native buildings, and colony ships and troop transports in the system, and garrison will grow normally; you're also not subject to the colony being bribed away
- if you subjugate them, you gain the ability to build Subjugated buildings (KLI, CAR, DOM), and free pop and infrastructure
- if you member them, you gain the ability to build Member buildings, their special buildings, and free pop and infrastructure

Subjugation is only really an option for civs that can benefit from it - as long as the buildings you have access to are powerful, I think it's great.
It can also be a quicker option late game to finish a game, of course.

Is Membership OP? As long as the time it takes to recoup that spent dole is long enough, and that the buildings you get access to aren't OP or at least have large restrictions/maintenance to compensate (which is what I was trying to do with the increased energy cost), it should b ok.
That's what we have to check and tweak where necessary.

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Re: Minor race advancement

Post by Iceman » Tue May 26, 2020 6:34 am

Malioc wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 4:48 am
Can't do testing atm.
I'm on vacation for a week. =)
WHAT?! You're on vacation and you're not playing?! :shock:
:smile: Just kidding!

As for decreased research... Personally I would not reduce their RP in addition to the reduction because of low morale.
If you "build" the unrest order, the low morale penalty is removed; there's no output when the unrest order is in effect anyway.
But that's a valid concern.

Subjugation should not be the norm, except for civs that make of it their way of life. Remember that those civs do get a morale boost when subjugating systems! And less warlike civs get a penalty - and a bonus to memberships. That's also a balancing factor not mentioned above.

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Re: Minor race advancement

Post by Malioc » Tue May 26, 2020 10:08 am

Not just the food, really. Food is just the most striking one.
Notice that the population, that is, those that will actually eat what the hunting grounds produce, are locals, not Klingons. Meaning they have to go *hunt* their food now, and for what reason? None. There are no Klingons living there. So they would completely rebuild the infrastructure of the entire system for exactly what?
As for the other production types, like already mentioned, is it actually wise to upgrade a *subjugated* system to your top tech, with the risk of it rebelling or being bribed away or what have you? 

Obviously, being a game, you want to maximize your output.  
But a small measure of "sensible" doesn't hurt?
Yeah, I know... but as long as the inhabitants can eat the new stuff, it's not always unlogical.

You have a great point, that completely changing the facilities is much more expensive than a normal upgrade. - But this could be simulated by increase the "switch" upgrade by a LOT (+100%?).

It would still pay off, because then the colony would eventually become productive, while a permanent level-2-colony is pretty worthless.

If it's wise to upgrade a slave colony to the highest standard depends on a player. It may work in ones favor (Rome). Or it could strengthen rebellion (like Bajor). - It still makes sense to try it though.

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Re: Minor race advancement

Post by Malioc » Tue May 26, 2020 10:15 am

- if you wipe them and recolonize, you gain the ability to build Native buildings, and colony ships and troop transports in the system, and garrison will grow normally; you're also not subject to the colony being bribed away
- if you subjugate them, you gain the ability to build Subjugated buildings (KLI, CAR, DOM), and free pop and infrastructure
- if you member them, you gain the ability to build Member buildings, their special buildings, and free pop and infrastructure

Subjugation is only really an option for civs that can benefit from it - as long as the buildings you have access to are powerful, I think it's great.
It can also be a quicker option late game to finish a game, of course.

Is Membership OP? As long as the time it takes to recoup that spent dole is long enough, and that the buildings you get access to aren't OP or at least have large restrictions/maintenance to compensate (which is what I was trying to do with the increased energy cost), it should b ok.
That's what we have to check and tweak where necessary.
Romulans don't have subjagation buildings? Mhm... kinda sounds wrong.
Although I forgot how BotF handled that.

Rest I agee on. I just would prefer it, if diplomacy doesn't work with credits alone. ;-)

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Re: Minor race advancement

Post by Iceman » Tue May 26, 2020 11:44 am

Malioc wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 10:08 am
Yeah, I know... but as long as the inhabitants can eat the new stuff, it's not always unlogical.

You have a great point, that completely changing the facilities is much more expensive than a normal upgrade. - But this could be simulated by increase the "switch" upgrade by a LOT (+100%?).

It would still pay off, because then the colony would eventually become productive, while a permanent level-2-colony is pretty worthless.

If it's wise to upgrade a slave colony to the highest standard depends on a player. It may work in ones favor (Rome). Or it could strengthen rebellion (like Bajor). - It still makes sense to try it though.
Not really worthless, as you can still build your civ's *Buildings* - just not the PFs. That Holographic Simulator is as effective in a subjugated or member system as in a native system! And it is not dependent on the minor's TL.

Rome didn't impose their villa concept on either subjugated or affiliated nations. Citizens of Rome (whether born as such or "upgraded" natives) living in those nations could obviously build them, but non-citizen natives wouldn't in general. Rome would build forums and arenas and temples, but those sre Buildings, not PFs.
Or vineyards and olives in regions where they wouldn't grow or the locals just didn't like/use wine or olive oil. Would it have been of any use to force them? Hmm.

I honestly think it is immersion breaking to have klingon facilities in a minor race's homesystem. Or any other empire's, really. Just doesn't feel right.

Notice that a minor race is a *bonus*. Like when you find a Chain Mail +2.
You can leave them alone, or just trade with them for the credits, or even raze them.
They aren't going to be level 2 permanently. Currently, only until you get another minor of a higher TL - once you do, you'll be able to upgrade. In the current patch, like already mentioned, minors should develop their own tech, so you should eventually be able to upgrade anyway.

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Re: Minor race advancement

Post by Malioc » Tue May 26, 2020 12:03 pm

Iceman wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 6:34 am
WHAT?! You're on vacation and you're not playing?!   :shock:
 :smile:   Just kidding!
I know. Starfleet forced me to take a part of my open vacation days after my 5-year-mission. Don't worry though, I just met this cute female Archeologist... ;-)

If you "build" the unrest order, the low morale penalty is removed; there's no output when the unrest order is in effect anyway.
But that's a valid concern.

Subjugation should not be the norm, except for civs that make of it their way of life. Remember that those civs do get a morale boost when subjugating systems! And less warlike civs get a penalty - and a bonus to memberships. That's also a balancing factor not mentioned above.
Haven't tried that (subjugation) in Supremacy so far. In BotF the conquered worlds had always low morale (except with Cardassians), so I assumed something similar here.

IMO a subjugated system should have lower happiness and therefore output than an integrated. Especially with research and intelligence. I'd estimate the lost not with 50% but maybe 10%.

Maybe this loss also drops with time. Afterall, most lifeforms get used to their way of life, when they are given the incentive to adapt.
While the majority of Bajorans rejected the Cardassians (at least in mind), the Remans and multiple members of dominion at some point accepted their position and even enjoyed the savety of the order of the Dominion.

This could either be translated via:
1. low morale due to philosophical conflict with the way to empire is ran
2. low principal tolerance for their own subjugation, i.e. while Mizarians love it (no penalty), the Bajorans hat it (high penalty

I kinda like 1., because I'd expect more acceptance for an occupier, who the subjugated race understands.
Example: Humans would prefer not being enslaved. But they would prefer being ruled by peaceful Vulcans than by murderous Klingons. And they would prefer Klingon dominance over Borg assimilation. ;-)

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Re: Minor race advancement

Post by Iceman » Tue May 26, 2020 1:32 pm

Malioc wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 12:03 pm
I know. Starfleet forced me to take a part of my open vacation days after my 5-year-mission. Don't worry though, I just met this cute female Archeologist... ;-)
Oohh, so you're going digging old stuff... I mean, relics, artifacts, etc. :wink:

Haven't tried that (subjugation) in Supremacy so far. In BotF the conquered worlds had always low morale (except with Cardassians), so I assumed something similar here.
Should be similar. If you don't do anything about it, you'll take a hit of -1 morale every turn. If it drops low enough, the colony might rebel (this is restricted to non-native colonies though, as they return to their original owner - whether it's a minor race or a major race).
But once your morale goes "negative", you can build the unrest order - Martial Law, whatever. These work exactly the same way as in BotF.

IMO a subjugated system should have lower happiness and therefore output than an integrated. Especially with research and intelligence. I'd estimate the lost not with 50% but maybe 10%.
It does. If you don't take care of it. And while you don't get a +1 morale in the colony to counter the subjugation penalty.
Like already mentioned, I also added (yesterday) a 50% penalty to research and intel output in subjugated colonies - which is independent of morale level.

Maybe this loss also drops with time. Afterall, most lifeforms get used to their way of life, when they are given the incentive to adapt.
While the majority of Bajorans rejected the Cardassians (at least in mind), the Remans and multiple members of dominion at some point accepted their position and even enjoyed the savety of the order of the Dominion.
Once you hit them with a Culling or a Tribunal, they tend to see the light. :twisted:

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Re: Minor race advancement

Post by Malioc » Tue May 26, 2020 2:40 pm

Iceman wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 11:44 am
Not really worthless, as you can still build your civ's *Buildings* - just not the PFs. That Holographic Simulator is as effective in a subjugated or member system as in a native system! And it is not dependent on the minor's TL.
True. =)
And contrary to old BotF you can even kinda efficiently build ships there.
It is still pretty tiresome when an "370" world stays at level 2, while even small systems produce more with their level 6 facilities. ;-)

Rome didn't impose their villa concept on either subjugated or affiliated nations. Citizens of Rome (whether born as such or "upgraded" natives) living in those nations could obviously build them, but non-citizen natives wouldn't in general. Rome would build forums and arenas and temples, but those sre Buildings, not PFs.
Or vineyards and olives in regions where they wouldn't grow or the locals just didn't like/use wine or olive oil. Would it have been of any use to force them? Hmm.
At the beginning Rome invaded multiple neighbor cities in Italy, which they completely formed in their image. Well, maybe a bit smaller, because the wealth should always go mostly to Rome. ;-)

Then they invaded big parts of Europe and Northern Africa, thanks to the technology spread over whole Italy. They didn't necessarily build everything  everywhere, but they weren't shy to build aquaducts, theaters, arenas, streets, handshops, mines, smiths etc. whereever they saw use, manpower and resources.
Food was a bit special, because of the clima. And research wasn't institutionalized back then. But they didn't hold the established technological knowledge back from their servants.

Sometimes their spread of knowledge backfired (which you pointed out as a risk). If they hadn't educated the foreigner Arminius as a perfect soldier and officer, he wouldn't have betrayed them, giving them their most painful defeat.

Still, it was smart business. Without spreading their knowledge, production and military style, they wouldn't have had so much resources to conquer so many areas.

Anyway, you're right, that there is a huge difference to Star Trek. Regardless if Rome, Britannia or Africa, it were always biologically near identical humans, who dominated or were subjugated. The only differences were a bit culture and a lot perception of superiority.

It's another thing, if another race would trust you with their technology. On the other hand, this could be a decision of a player. I wouldn't mind, if a subjugated minor becomes more dangerous the better his tech level is. ;-)

I honestly think it is immersion breaking to have klingon facilities in a minor race's homesystem. Or any other empire's, really. Just doesn't feel right.
Cardassians forced their tech on Bajor. Not only for adminstration but also to get most out of the planet. IMO this must have also included production.

I can only imagine 2 ways how to "use" a subjugated nation/planet/race:

1. If it has potential use the best tech to capitalize on it. - And that's not their hillbilly carpentry but mass industry.

2. If it's not worth the effort, plunder resources and change their society to a forced-labor-colony. In that case you may not spread your standard PF, but a dirty variation of it.
This scenario would actually need a third form of "slave" buildings. Still operating close to your current level of technological development, but probably less efficient.

Notice that a minor race is a *bonus*. Like when you find a Chain Mail +2.
You can leave them alone, or just trade with them for the credits, or even raze them.
They aren't going to be level 2 permanently. Currently, only until you get another minor of a higher TL - once you do, you'll be able to upgrade. In the current patch, like already mentioned, minors should develop their own tech, so you should eventually be able to upgrade anyway.
Understood. ;-)

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Re: Minor race advancement

Post by Iceman » Tue May 26, 2020 3:25 pm

Malioc wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 2:40 pm
And contrary to old BotF you can even kinda efficiently build ships there.
Very true. Not really kinda, there's actually no difference. Play the Klingons, and you have the +25% bonus :wink: oh, there's the morale thingie...

It is still pretty tiresome when an "370" world stays at level 2, while even small systems produce more with their level 6 facilities. ;-)
But you get more tax credits with the 370, and more fleet support, and it contributes more to your Domination VC, and produces a larger AoI :wink: Trade-off.

Then they invaded big parts of Europe and Northern Africa, thanks to the technology spread over whole Italy. They didn't necessarily build everything  everywhere, but they weren't shy to build aquaducts, theaters, arenas, streets, handshops, mines, smiths etc. whereever they saw use, manpower and resources.
Food was a bit special, because of the clima. And research wasn't institutionalized back then. But they didn't hold the established technological knowledge back from their servants.
I thought we were discussing PFs and not research anymore - as research has already been established that the minors will still conduct? :wink:
And they *did* keep some technology to themselves, especially military tech, like siege engines and such. It was what allowed them to maintain their status as an entity you shouldn't mess with. Other empires like Parthia, although powerful in their own way, couldn't really expand/conquer roman provinces because they just couldn't assault fortified cities. I mean, they could try :twisted:

Sometimes their spread of knowledge backfired (which you pointed out as a risk). If they hadn't educated the foreigner Arminius as a perfect soldier and officer, he wouldn't have betrayed them, giving them their most painful defeat.
We're talking upgrading a whole nation here, not an individual. In which provinces of the empire did they restructure the entire production infrastructure? Order was kept by their legions, with auxiliary units (always from *other* provinces AFAIK), and the province capital would have some structures to impose the roman way, but the provinces themselves would be kept largely the same.


Ahh, crap, I'm being called for dinner... :roll:

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