[Balance] Research speed

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Iceman
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Re: [Balance] Research speed

Post by Iceman »

I meant that *now* the hint shows the current survey %, so it's a lot easier to know if it can be surveyed again or not.
Get the latest release (20200521) with the latest patch (8jun), you're 2+ months behind :wink:
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Re: [Balance] Research speed

Post by Iceman »

Been thinking about research speed again lately. Is it ok now? Does it still need to be tweaked?
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Iscaran
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Re: [Balance] Research speed

Post by Iscaran »

Hi,

I just started a new game with the latest release - as I have now a little bit more evening time again. I will again keep posting my progress.
This time I chose a "large" galaxy only (not "huge").

In the last game the progress was a "tad too fast" for my taste (considering I was on TL 6 and barely met different empires)

I think for a small galaxy the research speed maybe already alright - but currently there is no "size" dependance.
I still think that a size dependence should be added - so research goes slower the larger the map is one plays.
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Re: [Balance] Research speed

Post by Iceman »

Hey Iscaran.
Hope everything is well with the new addition to the family :wink:

In that last game where you found it too fast, were you playing Slow? What I need to know is if Slow is still too fast. And ideally, if so, by how much - currently it's set to 65% Normal.

Playing on Slow makes it harder for minors to develop. A size modifier will make this even worse. Just a thought, not saying it's not a good idea!
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Iscaran
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Re: [Balance] Research speed

Post by Iscaran »

Yes it was on "slow".
And the current game (played 21 turns) is also on "slow".

But as I stated I think it might be more worthwhile to think about adding a galaxy size factor into the research stuff.

Lets observe how it runs in the "smaller" Large scale than previuosly on huge. Setting, race and everything is identical except galaxy size.
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Re: [Balance] Research speed

Post by Iceman »

The thing about a galaxy size mod is that a Huge galaxy with Dense stars and Dense planets is different than a Huge galaxy with Sparse stars and Sparse planets.

A "square root" type modulation on the total research points per turn might actually be more versatile, and make more sense - in that when you have several colonies researching at the same time, there's going to be some overlapping in that research for sure, and the more systems/labs you have, the higher that potential overlapping.
Or make it actually depend on the number of colonies with active labs, so that having say 10 colonies with a total output of 1000 RPs (unmodified) would be less effective (lower modified/final output) than 5 colonies with the same output of 1000 RPs - some form of empire size mod instead of a galaxy size mod. Colony specialization (by output type) would make a difference. [Could be the same for Intel]
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Iscaran
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Re: [Balance] Research speed

Post by Iscaran »

Hello,

let me answer your points succesively:

"The thing about a galaxy size mod is that a Huge galaxy with Dense stars and Dense planets is different than a Huge galaxy with Sparse stars and Sparse planets."

Yes indeed - maybe one would need to have a "modificator" just based on total number of planets (or total potential galaxy population, just after creation ?)

A "square root" type modulation on the total research points per turn might actually be more versatile, and make more sense - in that when you have several colonies researching at the same time, there's going to be some overlapping in that research for sure, and the more systems/labs you have, the higher that potential overlapping.

Although it may look appealing to slow down research speed based on empire size I would strongly vote against it - as it makes building larger empires somewhat obsolete. A similar thing is applied in Civilization 5 and 6 and it is one of the worst changes they did comparing to part 4. However they realized it and toned down the effect a little in 6.

I dislike such an approach because it puts pressure on the player NOT to expand - something I really dont want to see in an expand and conquer type of game somehow.

Or make it actually depend on the number of colonies with active labs, so that having say 10 colonies with a total output of 1000 RPs (unmodified) would be less effective (lower modified/final output) than 5 colonies with the same output of 1000 RPs - some form of empire size mod instead of a galaxy size mod. Colony specialization (by output type) would make a difference. [Could be the same for Intel]

This is basically similar to the above approach, but just realized differently. I would opt against it due to the same reasoning as above - do not santionize players for growing their empire (at least not too much, and I think that approach would be too much IMO).
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Re: [Balance] Research speed

Post by Iceman »

Yes indeed - maybe one would need to have a "modificator" just based on total number of planets (or total potential galaxy population, just after creation ?)
Just having values for Dense and Sparse would be easier, not sure some kind of formula would be needed.

Although it may look appealing to slow down research speed based on empire size I would strongly vote against it - as it makes building larger empires somewhat obsolete.
Not really. You get more population and with it more credits and more fleet support, you get more resources, potentially more shipyards and morale and whatnot, etc.
The point would be to make it so that creating one more research hub would not decrease (significantly) your global research output.

I dislike such an approach because it puts pressure on the player NOT to expand - something I really dont want to see in an expand and conquer type of game somehow.
How so? If you're going for a tech victory, I could (kind of) see your point - with the caveat mentioned above. Other than that, not really.
One of the "discussions" that always seems to come up nowadays in 4X games is the concept of tall vs wide empires. An empire size modifier would address that.
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Iscaran
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Re: [Balance] Research speed

Post by Iscaran »

Yes you are right that one gets more pop/credits/ fleet Support and so on.
I also am not totally against making negative modifiers dependant on Empire size on some stuff - but typically those modifiers in games I know and play serve ONLY one purpose...to slow down the player due to bad AI.

Thus I would be very careful on where to put them - especially if the intent is to have human - vs human play in mind.

Apart from that I once more stumbled on the ghost ship bug:

71 - Akritiran Patrol Ship appeared in Orbit of Qonos. Paired together with the newly build Colony Ship that was finished this turn.
Dragging it into a new Fleet via Fleet deployment was possible. But this created an "unknown Star fleet" to which no further commands could be issued.
72 - Akritiran Patrol Ship is now converted into a Klingon Fleet to which I CAN assign commands to.

Save games of both turns attached.
Attachments
Klingon Empire 72.zip
(455.84 KiB) Downloaded 10 times
Klingon Empire 71.zip
(458.12 KiB) Downloaded 9 times
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Re: [Balance] Research speed

Post by Iceman »

This seems to be related to the AI grouping its ships into a defense fleet, and for some reason the target fleet's ID is not correct.
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Re: [Balance] Research speed

Post by Iceman »

I was thinking of making the following changes:
- increasing the build cost of the Research (and eventually the Intelligence) Production Facilities
- increasing the tech level requirements of ships a bit, so that you don't get access to say era 2 (TL4) ships somewhat soon after reaching TL3 (currently only 2 or 3 fields @TL4 are necessary)
- maybe increasing RPs for TLs 2 and 3 a bit

Thoughts?
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