The Dominion

Supremacy; support/discussion/questions

Moderators: thunderchero, Iceman

Post Reply
Iceman
Rear-Admiral
Rear-Admiral
Posts: 1622
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:00 am

The Dominion

Post by Iceman »

It doesn't make much sense to have the Dominion "inherit" the Ferengi's slot of the trading civ :?:
Should we replace the trade related Buildings :?: (+TradeRoutes, +PercentTradeIncome)
User avatar
Iscaran
Lieutenant-Commander
Lieutenant-Commander
Posts: 130
Joined: Sun Aug 04, 2019 5:13 pm

Re: The Dominion

Post by Iscaran »

Can we make the Ferengi additional to the dominion ?

Apart from that, yes such traits dont suit the Dominion. They should have more traits similar to Cardassians (Espionage, Subjugation of conquered planets, cloaking (?) (at least for some ships ?). I think they had cloak in the series, didn't they ?

For sure I think they had something like shield-piercing weapons...not sure what other traits they might have, though
Iceman
Rear-Admiral
Rear-Admiral
Posts: 1622
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:00 am

Re: The Dominion

Post by Iceman »

Iscaran wrote: Fri Apr 17, 2020 1:12 pm Can we make the Ferengi additional to the dominion ?
If you mean have the Ferengi as a playable civ, it is possible. It's just not practical.
First, we don't have the assets for it. Most notably, ships, shipyards, stations. A new UI would be needed, some backgrounds, agents, etc.
Then we would have the problem with native quadrants. The Alpha Quadrant would have 3 major civs, BQ 2 and GQ 1. In smaller maps, that would be a real problem.

Apart from that, yes such traits dont suit the Dominion. They should have more traits similar to Cardassians (Espionage, Subjugation of conquered planets, cloaking (?) (at least for some ships ?). I think they had cloak in the series, didn't they ?
They already have those:
Changeling Network: +25% Espionage, +1 Morale
Changeling Replacements: +20% Sabotage
Internment Camp: +100 Intelligence (Subjugated)
Tribute Office: +40% Credits, -1 Morale (Subjugated)

And they have:
Vorta Cloning Lab: +2 ExternalAffairs (which is now working and adding to Regard with other civs)
extra production of energy and duranium, and their shipyards have higher output.

The Trade Hub (+3 Trade Routes, +1 Morale) and the Commercial Exchange (+50% TR Income, +1 Morale) are the ones that are "out of character".

Replace them with what?
Weapons Research? Ship Experience? We don't want them to be too similar to the Klingons though...
PopulationHealth (100%) in Founder colonies? Do like the Borg, no base growth (in Rogue planets only), requiring PopulationHealth bonuses?

For sure I think they had something like shield-piercing weapons...not sure what other traits they might have, though
Yep, but the other majors quickly adapted their shields to their phased polaron beams.
Iceman
Rear-Admiral
Rear-Admiral
Posts: 1622
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:00 am

Re: The Dominion

Post by Iceman »

Getting them to be a playable civ is the easy part.
Attachments
Ferengi1.png
Ferengi1.png (221.78 KiB) Viewed 859 times
Ferengi2.png
Ferengi2.png (645.43 KiB) Viewed 859 times
User avatar
Weyoun2986
Cadet 3rd Year
Cadet 3rd Year
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Sep 05, 2015 4:50 pm

Re: The Dominion

Post by Weyoun2986 »

Hey Iceman! Glad this is a topic of discussion, as I *LOVE* the Dominion and also have edited their traits and buildings in each new release to fit with my vision of how they should be in the game. As a caveat, since I rarely play against other people, I have not generally been concerned with keeping the Dominion "balanced" against the other major powers when making my own edits... which, again, I'm sort of fine with because it did take the combined forces of the Federation, Klingons, Romulans AND Cardassian rebellion to win against the Dominion (and that's to say nothing of the Prophets using space magic to make an entire armada of Dominion warships just disappear in the wormhole). Here's what I do:

1. Replace the "Changeling Network" with a "Biological Engineering Lab", limit one per empire on any native system (not Home System, as I think The Founders are true isolationists and would prefer as little activity on their homeworld as possible), that gives a %BioTech research bonus. The Founders have demonstrated in canon an exceptional ability to manipulate biological material - genetically designing the Vorta and Jem'Hadar, creating Ketracel White which the Alpha Quadrant powers found difficult to analyze/replicate, creating the Quickening plague, etc. - so I make sure this %BioTech research bonus is one of the best/biggest of any race's special structures.

2. Remove the "Changeling Network" prerequisite from the "Changeling Replacements" building, and make it give bonuses to Percent Intel Empire Wide and External Affairs. I know the intel system is still being ironed out, but if there were a percent Political Sabotage (maybe there is and I missed it?), I'd include that as a bonus, too... Basically, Changelings are the end-all of intelligence/manipulation in canon - wiping out most of the Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order in "The Die is Cast", instigating war between the Klingons and Cardassians which subsequently causes the dissolution of the Khitomer Accords between the Klingons and Federation, political upheaval on Earth in the "Homefront/Paradise Lost" episodes and, and this is just my personal head canon, I'm 100% sure there was a Changeling or two in disguise nudging Dukat to pursue Dominion membership for Cardassia.

3. Replace the "Commercial Exchange" with a "Vorta Liaison Office", limit one per Member System, that gives a huge bonus to Bribe Resistance (so once they're a member system it's super duper hard for a foreign power to get them to peel away), and a NEGATIVE to system morale... Like Cardassia, the member system was probably eager to join the Dominion at first but soon came to regret it.

4. Change the bonus for the Jem'Hadar Barracks from Ground Combat to Ground Defense, as the Ketracel White Factory has Ground Combat covered already.

5. Change the bonus for Logistic Command from %Bribe Resistance EW to %Internal Security. This is mostly done to account for my new Vorta Liaison Office above, that and in the episode "In the Pale Moonlight" (one of the best in all Star Trek!) Garak mentions that Dominion security tracked down and killed every single one of his associates on Cardassia within one day of speaking to him, saying "I suppose that's a testament to the effectiveness of Dominion security." :-)

6. Change the bonus for The Great Link from empire-wide to +5 morale for that system only... The Founders are extremely happy in the Link, but they don't give two flips what the rest of the galaxy thinks.

7. Replace the "Trade Hub" with "Jem'Hadar Hatchery", limit one per Native System, lower the build and energy costs so it's relatively cheap, and have it give a +2 growth rate.

8. Change the stats for the "Vorta Cloning Lab", build once per system (regardless of Member/Native/Home/Rogue etc.), but now it only gives a +1 bonus to Ship Experience. This ensures all ships built in the same system start at the first experience tier, but also that the cloning lab is pretty useless for training ships to higher levels. The idea is that all Vorta ship commanders come with some basic command ability hard-wired into their genetic makeup (they were biologically engineered for this purpose, after all) but don't ever really excel at it.

9. Make the White Distribution Center build-able only in Native Systems. This modification, combined with the lack of an empire-wide morale bonus from The Great Link and the negative morale from the Vorta Liaison Office and the unchanged Tribute Office, mean your native systems of Jem'Hadar are fanatically loyal while member and conquered systems are constantly sliding toward civil unrest and rebellion, which require lots of monitoring and production delays due to regular culling. The solids are a pain in the ass!

10. Finally, I change some things about Dominion Agents. I remove Odo, Laas, and all Jem'Hadar agents completely - Odo and Laas were never truly agents of the Dominion in canon (plus The Founders rarely bother managing the day-to-day, though one could make a case for replacing Odo/Laas with The Female Changeling or The Krajensky Changeling, etc.), and I've chosen to remove the Jem'Hadar mostly as a way to give priority to the Vorta agents, who I make functionally immortal in the game by extending the CareerDuration in PersonnelConstants to something huge (like 5,000). This simulates the idea of the Vorta being clones and retaining all memories/experiences of their previous selves (functionally immortal) but also means I'd have functionally immortal Jem'Hadar as well (which is super not right as they only live about 10 years in canon, hence why I take them out of play). And, if playing as the Dominion I don't really care if the Federation has a 5000-year-old Jonathan Archer, but can easily reset the global career duration if I want to play as another faction.

Again, I'm not really concerned with "balance" versus the other powers, but that's the gist of how I think the Dominion should play. :-)
Iceman
Rear-Admiral
Rear-Admiral
Posts: 1622
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:00 am

Re: The Dominion

Post by Iceman »

Weyoun2986 wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 12:42 pm Hey Iceman! Glad this is a topic of discussion, as I *LOVE* the Dominion and also have edited their traits and buildings in each new release to fit with my vision of how they should be in the game.
Hey Weyoun! Glad to see you again. I was actually hoping to get feedback from you when I started this thread :wink:

As a caveat, since I rarely play against other people, I have not generally been concerned with keeping the Dominion "balanced" against the other major powers when making my own edits...
Well, we should all work together to make the Dominion balanced with the other majors - as balanced as possible, ofc.

which, again, I'm sort of fine with because it did take the combined forces of the Federation, Klingons, Romulans AND Cardassian rebellion to win against the Dominion (and that's to say nothing of the Prophets using space magic to make an entire armada of Dominion warships just disappear in the wormhole).
:lol:
Are you implying that there was some kind of bias or something against the Dominion in the shows, and that the Federation always manages to come out on top whatever the threat they face, in ways that are really silly? :evil: :grin:

Here's what I do:
I gave it a once over, and I really liked most of it. It's a lot to digest, so I'll reply to the rest of the post later.
I'm just finishing up some minor improvements to the colony management AI. It's rather decent I think, but I want it to be better.

Thanks!
Iceman
Rear-Admiral
Rear-Admiral
Posts: 1622
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:00 am

Re: The Dominion

Post by Iceman »

Weyoun2986 wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 12:42 pm 1. Replace the "Changeling Network" with a "Biological Engineering Lab", limit one per empire on any native system (not Home System, as I think The Founders are true isolationists and would prefer as little activity on their homeworld as possible), that gives a %BioTech research bonus. The Founders have demonstrated in canon an exceptional ability to manipulate biological material - genetically designing the Vorta and Jem'Hadar, creating Ketracel White which the Alpha Quadrant powers found difficult to analyze/replicate, creating the Quickening plague, etc. - so I make sure this %BioTech research bonus is one of the best/biggest of any race's special structures.
Sounds cool.
The only con I see is that 2 other major races already have a %BioTech special building (Cards Metagenics Lab, Fed Genesis Research Lab), and a bunch of minors too. It's a very popular bonus.

2. Remove the "Changeling Network" prerequisite from the "Changeling Replacements" building, and make it give bonuses to Percent Intel Empire Wide and External Affairs. I know the intel system is still being ironed out, but if there were a percent Political Sabotage (maybe there is and I missed it?), I'd include that as a bonus, too... Basically, Changelings are the end-all of intelligence/manipulation in canon - wiping out most of the Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order in "The Die is Cast", instigating war between the Klingons and Cardassians which subsequently causes the dissolution of the Khitomer Accords between the Klingons and Federation, political upheaval on Earth in the "Homefront/Paradise Lost" episodes and, and this is just my personal head canon, I'm 100% sure there was a Changeling or two in disguise nudging Dukat to pursue Dominion membership for Cardassia.
Yes, the Changeling buildings are somewhat weird. They haven't been addressed yet because the intel and external affairs bonuses weren't working. Now that they are (though intel only has some limited effect), it's time to rework the Dominion buildings.
There was a Political Sabotage bonus, but I scrapped it some time ago. I'm not really sure what kind of political sabotage actions - and the corresponding espionage actions - would be available. I mean, that are not related to diplomacy in some way. The plan is to have Agents act as political saboteurs of sorts, undermining relations of a civ with its member minors for example. That's what the changeling Agents are for (mentioned in your point 10), their stats reflecting their purpose.

3. Replace the "Commercial Exchange" with a "Vorta Liaison Office", limit one per Member System, that gives a huge bonus to Bribe Resistance (so once they're a member system it's super duper hard for a foreign power to get them to peel away), and a NEGATIVE to system morale... Like Cardassia, the member system was probably eager to join the Dominion at first but soon came to regret it.
Nice.

4. Change the bonus for the Jem'Hadar Barracks from Ground Combat to Ground Defense, as the Ketracel White Factory has Ground Combat covered already.
Ground Defense in Supremacy protects population from orbital bombardment, it's different from BotF.
The KWF was supposed to be like the Klingons' Hall of Warriors to the Battle Stations. Since you can only build it (KWF) in Links (which should be rare beyond TGL), it was extra protection in Founder inhabited worlds.

5. Change the bonus for Logistic Command from %Bribe Resistance EW to %Internal Security. This is mostly done to account for my new Vorta Liaison Office above, that and in the episode "In the Pale Moonlight" (one of the best in all Star Trek!) Garak mentions that Dominion security tracked down and killed every single one of his associates on Cardassia within one day of speaking to him, saying "I suppose that's a testament to the effectiveness of Dominion security." :-)
I always wanted to do this! Sounds more logical. I just didn't have the energy to change the descriptions of the buildings - you do know that *someone* will have to rewrite all these descriptions, don'tcha? :razz:

6. Change the bonus for The Great Link from empire-wide to +5 morale for that system only... The Founders are extremely happy in the Link, but they don't give two flips what the rest of the galaxy thinks.
But the minors do worship the Founders, and feel motivated by being part of the Dominion.
It's rather easy to make TGL start with maxed out morale, if needed.


I'll reply to the rest later.

Can you post your modded file(s)? Or PM them or something. I'd like to see what stats you came up with.
Iceman
Rear-Admiral
Rear-Admiral
Posts: 1622
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:00 am

Re: The Dominion

Post by Iceman »

Weyoun2986 wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 12:42 pm 7. Replace the "Trade Hub" with "Jem'Hadar Hatchery", limit one per Native System, lower the build and energy costs so it's relatively cheap, and have it give a +2 growth rate.
I already removed the +GrowthRate bonus from the game, as it was only really useful for the few turns a colony is growing its pop. And it was kind of confusing (in the way that it seemed a duplication of) having it side by side with the +PopulationHealth bonus.
I could make them (the J'H) similar to the Borg, having no natural growth, and relying on the +PopulationHealth bonus for generating population :?:

8. Change the stats for the "Vorta Cloning Lab", build once per system (regardless of Member/Native/Home/Rogue etc.), but now it only gives a +1 bonus to Ship Experience. This ensures all ships built in the same system start at the first experience tier, but also that the cloning lab is pretty useless for training ships to higher levels. The idea is that all Vorta ship commanders come with some basic command ability hard-wired into their genetic makeup (they were biologically engineered for this purpose, after all) but don't ever really excel at it.
Right now they do not have an "academy" building because they do have higher shipbuilding capacity, and their warships are more powerful (I'm still thinking about adding a "shield penetration" stat to beam weapons, for their phased polaron beams).
Making the VCL buildable in any shipyard system would (though training crews would be largely irrelevant) give the Dominion an edge in that all their ships would start at Regular - while the other majors' start at Green in non-academy systems. Maybe it should be Founder (Rogue) worlds only? I mean, would you trust a J'H populated colony to gladly have a Vorta cloning facility? :wink:

9. Make the White Distribution Center build-able only in Native Systems. This modification, combined with the lack of an empire-wide morale bonus from The Great Link and the negative morale from the Vorta Liaison Office and the unchanged Tribute Office, mean your native systems of Jem'Hadar are fanatically loyal while member and conquered systems are constantly sliding toward civil unrest and rebellion, which require lots of monitoring and production delays due to regular culling. The solids are a pain in the ass!
Does it actually work like that? It's an honest question, it sounds interesting as you laid it out, we just need to make sure that it doesn't make it too painful to keep all those solids in line. :twisted:

10. Finally, I change some things about Dominion Agents. I remove Odo, Laas, and all Jem'Hadar agents completely - Odo and Laas were never truly agents of the Dominion in canon (plus The Founders rarely bother managing the day-to-day, though one could make a case for replacing Odo/Laas with The Female Changeling or The Krajensky Changeling, etc.), and I've chosen to remove the Jem'Hadar mostly as a way to give priority to the Vorta agents, who I make functionally immortal in the game by extending the CareerDuration in PersonnelConstants to something huge (like 5,000). This simulates the idea of the Vorta being clones and retaining all memories/experiences of their previous selves (functionally immortal) but also means I'd have functionally immortal Jem'Hadar as well (which is super not right as they only live about 10 years in canon, hence why I take them out of play). And, if playing as the Dominion I don't really care if the Federation has a 5000-year-old Jonathan Archer, but can easily reset the global career duration if I want to play as another faction.
Hehe.
Dominion Agents are set up in a way to predominantly make them best employed as: Vorta as diplomats/envoys, Jem'Hadar as fleet officers, and Founders as spies/saboteurs.
Odo and Laas were both part of the Hundred Changelings sent out to gather information on solids, so I think it makes sense to have them as "spies" of sorts. The Female Changeling is the head of the Dominion, so she doesn't go out on "missions". The Krajensky Changeling, if there was a pic of him in his Founder form, I'd add him to the game; that'd be another Founder Agent, there are only a couple of those...
Some Jem'Hadar live past the age of 20, and they're given the status of Honored Elder. I guess we could make their lifespans shorter - wouldn't it be kind of strange though, in game terms, to have them retire/die shortly after being recruited? For new players and such.
These Agents are meant to be J'H Firsts in a fleet, providing the tactical advantages that fleet officers will eventually have in the game - rather than the oversight duties that the Vorta have in such ships/fleets.
The Vorta Agents are the ones you're supposed to use to influence other civs, namely as envoys - IIRC I gave female and male Vorta different skill sets so as to make one of them also be usable in other tasks.
I can easily also make the lifespan of Vorta and Jem'Hadar longer and shorter respectively - the Founders already have very long lifespans, same as Androids (eg Data) IIRC. Some day I might make these modifiers moddable.

Again, I'm not really concerned with "balance" versus the other powers, but that's the gist of how I think the Dominion should play. :-)
Thanks a lot for this awesome feedback! We'll finally have a true Dominion in the game! :up:
Iceman
Rear-Admiral
Rear-Admiral
Posts: 1622
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:00 am

Re: The Dominion

Post by Iceman »

While at it, since the only nourishment that the J'H need is KW, and most native Dominion colonies are J'H, shouldn't the Food production Facilities be (called) the K-W Factory, instead of Processing Plant? Or the White Distribution Centre. This way, we could "get rid" of the Ground Combat extra bonus of KWF.
Or should we just leave this alone/as is :?:

(I have it in my ToDo list to have minors only build the generic PFs/SYs/OBs)
Iceman
Rear-Admiral
Rear-Admiral
Posts: 1622
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:00 am

Re: The Dominion

Post by Iceman »

There was a Political Sabotage bonus, but I scrapped it some time ago. I'm not really sure what kind of political sabotage actions - and the corresponding espionage actions - would be available. I mean, that are not related to diplomacy in some way. The plan is to have Agents act as political saboteurs of sorts, undermining relations of a civ with its member minors for example. That's what the changeling Agents are for (mentioned in your point 10), their stats reflecting their purpose.
What would a Political Manipulation (or a better name for it - Sabotage might cause confusion with Intel ops) be used for in the game :?:
I mean I'm looking for ideas on how to implement it, that are both doable and meaningful.


--

Would it make sense to have the bonus for The Great Link building changed (from +1 Morale Empire-Wide) to +2 Regard :?:
And then change the bonus for Vorta Cloning Lab (from +2 Regard) to the aforementioned BioTech research :?:
Post Reply

Return to “Supremacy”