The Dominion

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geordie
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Re: The Dominion

Post by geordie »

Iceman asked me to comment Dominium proposed update. Sorry for so late input, my only excuse is that I had my holidays unexpectedly split into two parts and somehow forgot about that.

First - it would be nice to have Ferengi back as another playable power in the galaxy :)

My comments:

#1 - I don't think it is necessary. The bio-tech support buildings are the most popular ones among minor races so it is quite easy to find such support.
For me the Dominium specialized in genetics (that includes Quickening plague) and cloning, not exactly in bio-science. Apart of exceptional genetic manipulation ability they also were super-spies, so current Changeling Network features are somehow justified, but rather as spy support not only a security one. Definitely I would propose not to limit that to Home system, but to Founders' system (the same for Changeling Replacement - recently Iceman noticed my 6 Founders' systems ;)).

#6 - I would agree with that, but again for all colonized systems with a rough planet.

#7 - The Trade Hub is removed as I remember. I suppose the trade lines are another topic to discuss not only for the Dominium as current effect is minimal.

Logistic Command - I would limit its influence only to friendly empires or minor race, so at least having the Open Boarder Treaty.

Vorta Cloning Lab - I am not sure why +1 ship experience is there. Probably the Dominium should have a building increasing ship experience, but that building should provide a bonus in diplomacy.

I would also propose to lower Vorta Liaison Office bonus to 1000. A bribing of other empire members is not implemented, but 2000 looks like prohibiting any membership change for Dominium dependent races. Of course to test that in future.
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Re: The Dominion

Post by Iceman »

geordie wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:27 pm Iceman asked me to comment Dominium proposed update. Sorry for so late input, my only excuse is that I had my holidays unexpectedly split into two parts and somehow forgot about that.
No prob, glad to get your input!

First - it would be nice to have Ferengi back as another playable power in the galaxy :)
If someone wants to deliver all the required assets for them, I'll be glad to add them to the game :cool:


#1 - I don't think it is necessary. The bio-tech support buildings are the most popular ones among minor races so it is quite easy to find such support.
For me the Dominium specialized in genetics (that includes Quickening plague) and cloning, not exactly in bio-science. Apart of exceptional genetic manipulation ability they also were super-spies, so current Changeling Network features are somehow justified, but rather as spy support not only a security one. Definitely I would propose not to limit that to Home system, but to Founders' system (the same for Changeling Replacement - recently Iceman noticed my 6 Founders' systems ;)).
Duh! You're right, done! They can now be built in any Link - but they're still OnePerEmpire :razz:

#6 - I would agree with that, but again for all colonized systems with a rough planet.
Just to be sure, you agree about making the Great Link a +5 Morale building instead of +1 Morale Empire-Wide ?

Is +5 the best bet, or should it be lower?
I'm asking because +5 makes them able to get to max morale in Links even before gaining acess to other +Morale buildings that they can build there
[ Changeling Network (TL5), K-W Factory (TL5), Vorta Cloning Lab (TL5), White Distribution Centre (TL6) ]

Or putting the question in a different form, if they get +5 Morale from TGL, does it make sense for the Changeling Network to have a(n extra) +1 Morale bonus? Probably not.
Same question for the K-W Factory and the Vorta Cloning Lab (the White Distribution Centre can be built in Jem'Hadar colonies too).

#7 - The Trade Hub is removed as I remember. I suppose the trade lines are another topic to discuss not only for the Dominium as current effect is minimal.
Yes, the Hub has been removed.

A discussion about Trade Routes would be nice, yes. What do you mean by their effect being minimal? The "diplomatic" effect, or the credits output? Or something else?

Logistic Command - I would limit its influence only to friendly empires or minor race, so at least having the Open Boarder Treaty.
Currently it only works for minor races, with no restrictions.

Vorta Cloning Lab - I am not sure why +1 ship experience is there. Probably the Dominium should have a building increasing ship experience, but that building should provide a bonus in diplomacy.
Like Weyoun explained, it is just to give the Dominion the ability to build ships starting at Regular (instead of Green, like in all colonies without an academy) but with a negligible ability to train crews (the J'H being short lived and all).

I would also propose to lower Vorta Liaison Office bonus to 1000. A bribing of other empire members is not implemented, but 2000 looks like prohibiting any membership change for Dominium dependent races. Of course to test that in future.
Will do.

Great feedback, thanks! There's still a lot that can be discussed about this, hopefully this discussion continues. And more people join it.
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geordie
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Re: The Dominion

Post by geordie »

Just to be sure, you agree about making the Great Link a +5 Morale building instead of +1 Morale Empire-Wide ?

Is +5 the best bet, or should it be lower?
I'm asking because +5 makes them able to get to max morale in Links even before gaining acess to other +Morale buildings that they can build there
[ Changeling Network (TL5), K-W Factory (TL5), Vorta Cloning Lab (TL5), White Distribution Centre (TL6) ]

Or putting the question in a different form, if they get +5 Morale from TGL, does it make sense for the Changeling Network to have a(n extra) +1 Morale bonus? Probably not.
Same question for the K-W Factory and the Vorta Cloning Lab (the White Distribution Centre can be built in Jem'Hadar colonies too).
Let's say I accept the idea and details could be tested. If accepted we could start with +3. I you know I dislike to many favors for specific races and the Dominium regard rose far too fast in the past versions of the game.
A discussion about Trade Routes would be nice, yes. What do you mean by their effect being minimal? The "diplomatic" effect, or the credits output? Or something else?
For now an effect of trade routs in money is negligible. In the original BotF longer line provided more money, now it is opposite and often there is no suitable system nearby. We could try 2-3 times greater income to have it attractive. From other side I a connection to diplomacy would be nice, like +1 of regard per turn per agreement - just a free thought.
Definitely an easy process to switch system connected to given line would be also nice, even now. If I break the line it is a message about a penalty in relations and I am not sure if choosing different system of my empire to be connected in the same turn is penalize or not. In time I should have more suitable systems in closer vicinity to trade with minors.
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Re: The Dominion

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geordie wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:27 pm Logistic Command - I would limit its influence only to friendly empires or minor race, so at least having the Open Boarder Treaty.
Done!

Vorta Cloning Lab - I am not sure why +1 ship experience is there. Probably the Dominium should have a building increasing ship experience, but that building should provide a bonus in diplomacy.
You mean the Vorta Cloning Lab should be the one giving +Regard (instead of the Logistics Command)?
Maybe swap the bonuses of these 2 buildings would make more sense?
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Re: The Dominion

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geordie wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:58 pm As requested by Iceman I have been playing some turns as the Dominium, using both last patches.
Yes, I can see that you colonized one nebula with the older patch, and 2 more with the latest patch :wink: Now Rogue planets are renamed to Links when colonized by the Dominion :cool:

The building The Great Link (not the [Omarion Nebula] planet) should probably be renamed to something else... or should we keep the building as TGL and rename the planet?

Anyway, how does the new TGL building (+3 Morale) play compared to the old TGL (+1 Morale EW) :?:

And the +Regard building only affecting Friendly+ civs :?:

I've swapped the obsoletion path in the KW buildings, and will try to find a way to prevent having both in the same colony.
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Re: The Dominion

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geordie wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 5:03 pm OK, I try to remind myself what happened during the game:

General remark - the Dominium was developing slightly slower, especially in relations with minors.
Did you find it to be too slow, just about right, or too fast?

It is difficult to compare AI changes, but for the whole first part of the game (up to about 30 colonies) Klingons were slightly ahead and Feds were on about my level. After that all empires developed significantly slower and remained far behind, at least in number of controlled systems.
It must be a coincidence, but the Klingons generally seem to do well / start fast.

I noticed that the AIs were behind, especially the Cards... they must have had some (really) bad luck, with the starting position, and maybe with some random events. I don't think I changed anything in the colonization AI recently.

Anyway, how does the new TGL building (+3 Morale) play compared to the old TGL (+1 Morale EW) :?:
The Founders' systems with TGL constructed were going quite fast to 'Fanatic' morale, so we could lower that to +2 and test how it works.
+2, done.
Now, with this change, IIRC Rogue planets can only get +4 Morale (unless there's a foreign +1 Morale EW), which IIRC doesn't allow Morale to remain at 200 (if reached ofc).
Should we let both Ketracel White Factory and White Distribution Centre be buildable in the same colony then? So they can get to +5? Or keep as is?

The diplomatic relations with friendly minors were improving also slower, but as you can see there was no special problem with increasing number of memberships. I would not go back to the previous version.
:up:
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Re: The Dominion

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geordie wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 5:03 pm The diplomatic relations with friendly minors were improving also slower, but as you can see there was no special problem with increasing number of memberships. I would not go back to the previous version.
With your treasury at 7.5K, and 13 Member and 8 Affiliated minors, do you think we should lower tax income, to delay memberships a bit, and also to make the Tribute Office (and subjugation) required for development and diplomacy? How do you find subjugated minors (the Kazon in your case) vs member minors?
The Dominion doesn't have trade routes by default (and by design), they have to rely on TO as a replacement (and Mercantile minors).

Sorry about the barrage of questions, but I'd really like to wrap up the Dominion as fast as possible.
We still need some soundfx for them, especially the diplomacy related ones. It took me a while to realise the lack of those soundfx was not a bug in the code, but simply that they were missing... :oops:
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Re: The Dominion

Post by geordie »

I think here is a discrepancy in White Distribution Centre description - I can build WDC first, but I do not know if I get the Ground Combat bonus.
Screenshot (63).jpg
Screenshot (63).jpg (526.27 KiB) Viewed 270 times
Anyway I would propose to eliminate WDC from rough planet systems and leave it only for Jem'Hadar systems to keep their loyalty on. It is strange as well that the Founders would like to drug themselves, but maybe I am too much naive. :wink:
I suppose that the Great Link bonus is enough to reach Fanatic morale.
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Re: The Dominion

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geordie wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:22 pm I think here is a discrepancy in White Distribution Centre description - I can build WDC first, but I do not know if I get the Ground Combat bonus.
You mean with the WDC obsoleting the KWF?
Notice that one doesn't replace the other! If you build both (see below), you get both bonuses: +2 Morale, AND the GdCbt bonus.

But if you mean the text description, most if not all descriptions for Dominion buildings will need to be rewritten, as there were loads of changes!
We just need someone to do that rewriting.

Anyway I would propose to eliminate WDC from rough planet systems and leave it only for Jem'Hadar systems to keep their loyalty on.
That's what I wanted to do, but currently there's no way to do that. There's no restriction for NOT Nebula or NOT Rogue Planet, or equivalent. So I had to go this route, make one obsolete the other, so that if you build the KWF (TL5) in Links, you cannot build the WDC (TL6); this kind of works until you reach TL6 (unless you want to wait until TL6 to game the system, but you don't get the bonus until then).
Being able to build both using that loophole is hopefully temporary, I have it on my ToDo list to have the obsoletion code work not only for constructed buildings, but also for items in the build slot and queue.

The WDC being buildable in Native systems means you can build it in both Founder and Jem'Hadar colonies, due to the particular implementation of the Dominion.
I can change the code to make Native not be buildable in Founder colonies (as an exception), if that's what we want.

It is strange as well that the Founders would like to drug themselves, but maybe I am too much naive. :wink:
The K-W is for the Jem'Hadar garrisoning the Link, not for the Founders! :razz:

I suppose that the Great Link bonus is enough to reach Fanatic morale.
The question was about maintaining at Fanatic (which requires a permanent +5 morale in the colony), not reaching Fanatic (with temporary morale boosts like eliminating civs and whatnot).
+2 from Link, +1 from Vorta, +1 from KWF; that's +4. To get to +5, you need WDC, and hence my question: should it be buildable in Rogues or not?
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Re: The Dominion

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Iceman wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 2:12 pm Should we swap the bonuses of some of the buildings?

What should we do with these:
Changeling Network
Changeling Replacements
Logistics Command
Vorta Cloning Lab

I'd like to make them more coherent. And their descriptions have to be rewritten, ofc.
Maybe a direct swap :?:
Logistics Command -> +%InternalSecurity
Changeling Network -> +Regard


+2 from Link, +1 from Vorta, +1 from KWF; that's +4. To get to +5, you need WDC
Forgot about Changeling NW.
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Re: The Dominion

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How about increasing the Dominion's fleet population support (maybe even higher than the Klingons'?), and decreasing their tax output?
They can have larger fleets without paying maintenance / will have to pay less maintenance when over fleet population support; the lower taxes will then be more relevant for diplomacy and rush building stuff - the Tribute Office credits boost could then be increased from 40% to something like 100% (which can only be built in Subjugated colonies, but could be changed to NonNative colonies [Member + Subjugated].
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