Playing as the Borg

Supremacy; support/discussion/questions

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Re: Playing as the Borg

Post by Iceman »

geordie wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 5:09 am I understand that an AI for the Borg opponents could be more unique (alliances and unified fleets?)
That is part of the original design of the game, there just hasn't been any work on that yet. Not sure if we should improve the Borg a bit more before thinking about implementing this?

For now I would propose only to add second Maturity Chamber for systems 300+ population.
The problem is we don't have a restriction for that. Only per 100 max pop. I can re-introduce it for the MC. Those first few turns in Unimatrix are kind of boring. :neutral:

And please make a change in the AI not to colonize systems inside the Borg cube range.
They already should not colonize close to Borg colonies, but I don't recall how close (inside their territory, at least, I'm sure). I'll check that.


Re pop support, should we use Research instead of Intelligence for the bonus to min pop support :?:
The difference being that the Resonance Chamber can be built in *any* colony (+1000 Research), whereas the Central Nexus is unique (+2000 Intelligence, temporary for testing purposes).
So you'd get +1 min pop support for each RC you have. But I'm not sure the long term benefit is worth the short term decrease.
I'll have to check if the Borg AI is actually building Intel structures to benefit from this (though for now this is only for testing purposes).
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Re: Playing as the Borg

Post by Iceman »

geordie wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 5:09 am And please make a change in the AI not to colonize systems inside the Borg cube range.
I checked, and they'll not colonize in a 4 sector radius - from any potential threat, not just the Borg.
I can increase that radius as you suggested, but that means that the AI will "cheat" in some way - it might not know the range of a Borg Cube if it has not met one yet.
I'll just double the radius for the Borg, which should solve the problem. :wink:
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Re: Playing as the Borg

Post by akido »

Hi, I’m essentially new to this forum but have been playing BotF (and its various mods) on and off since its release in 1999. It would seem that I have recently entered an on phase again and discovered Supremacy. I find it quite promising and would like to help to further develop it. Therefore, I contacted Iceman and he encouraged me to share my thoughts here in this thread. I may update/edit this list at a later point in time, of course, but these are my initial thoughts regarding my favorite civ:

To begin with, the implementation of the Borg that I like the most in Tethys’ Galaxies Mod (of the original game). There the Borg are a fully playable empire too (replacing the Ferengi), but with buildings, ships and upgrades for all tech levels (i.e. 1-15, he extended the original tech range), plus the accompanying artwork. That means you can start with any tech level and play in a way similar to the other empires, but with Borg-like and mostly canon assets. Morale is not frozen either. There are limitations regarding transwarp travel (-1…) and assimilation because there was only so much you can do with a static exe. This would obviously be different for Supremacy.

I believe that Tethys’ Galaxies Mod would be a very good inspiration and starting point for integrating more Borg features and assets into Supremacy to improve the Borg *as a playable civ* – AI may be updated later but that’s trickier. Some years ago, I did some modifications on that mod on my own.
(Eventually, other BotF Mods might be assimilated (sorry for the pun) into Supremacy too in a semi-automated way by enhancing Ultimate Editor and introducing a few features back into Supremacy, but that’s a different topic.)

When it comes to graphics, models, audio and other inspirations beyond other BotF mods, Armada 1/2 (specifically Fleet Operations) and Star Trek New Horizons (Stellaris Mod) may provide an inspiration too over and above the known ST resources online, but my knowledge of all of them is a bit dated.

Beyond integrating (and balancing) more Borg assets into Supremacy, I would like to expand the game mechanics (mostly requiring changes to the C# source code) for (not in order of preference but to make it easier to refer to it):
  1. Reintroducing (or rather, unfreezing) tech levels 0-11 for the Borg.
  2. Adapting colonization for the Borg beyond reintroducing Borg colony ships through editing the XMLs. It would have to be balanced in a decent way, making Colony ships expensive, high in maintenance cost, slow and/or very short range in order to discourage the player/AI from founding too many and getting too much of an advantage. Mainly thinking population support but also other resources. This is related to general Borg shipbuilding questions (How many shipyards? All ships or leave Sphere and bigger to Unicomplex(es), e.g. by capping the Shipyard’s tech level in the XMLs).
  3. Reintroducing population growth, perhaps through assimilation of other worlds and ships (see below, but perhaps only through structures like maturation chambers, as can already be done through editing the XMLs).
  4. Reintroducing (or rather, unfreezing) morale for the Borg (remember rogue colonies and ships…).
  5. Assimilation of systems could be more challenging for (i.e. against) specific civs (I take it that it is already impossible for some) and may require some continuous effort or control/mitigation (buildings, …).
  6. Assimilation of systems should be more dynamic in terms of the structures that you get (i.e., that remain/survive) from the previous civ.
    1. Specifically, assimilation of technology from systems dynamically into the Borg tech tree, with adaptions where necessary. Would be cool to be able to build special buildings and ships from assimilated civs anywhere, and I’m sure the Collective would be capable of doing that! Perhaps some extra research points too, unless we go for structures that yield extra research (absolute or %) every turn or we even make assimilation the primary (one-time) way to get research points (depending on tech gap ofc, minor vs. major empire etc.).
    2. Specifically, introducing an additional status for assimilated planets (neither native nor subjugated) that could be used for building requirements (e.g., research). Perhaps even distinguishing between minor system, major empire colony, and major home system.
  7. Assimilation of starships: Once their shields are down, one Borg ship may assimilate one enemy ship as the result of a battle. The ship would then become a Borg ship (graphics like in Armada would be secondary but definitely cool) but without maintenance cost (pops are already on it). There may or may not be an extra penalty in terms of pops, research or morale for the losing side. There may be additional research points in for the Borg, with the amount subject to the ship size and difference in technology levels. And resources could be gained from scrapping them (especially with the proper bonus building). I see that similar ideas have been discussed before.
  8. We might revisit the idea of depletable nanoprobes to slow down binge assimilation, and we could tie their quality to biotech research (and perhaps others), e.g., as a factor. Example: It could be something like WorkCapacity * (1+BiotechLevel/10). A number similar to the required WorkCapacity to assimilate a system could be subtracted after assimilation, and regenerated at a specified rate subject to TechFactors and ShipExperience. Then we would not even have to introduce another ship attribute.
  9. Adaptive Borg shields (a vulnerability at first, perhaps an advantage later) - make shields less effective at the beginning of a battle, perhaps also subject to weapons and energy tech differences. We might develop this further in terms of weapons classes and bonus types.
  10. Ship experience that is shared globally (universally…) among the Collective, automatically increasing after every battle in a way similar to standard ship experience, perhaps even more so after lost battles if the ship survives. (Ship training facilities might still be assimilated into the Collective but that would have to be capped then.)
  11. They might have a different victory condition than the other empires (Tech victory – omniscience only – after all, they strive for perfection).
  12. Territory claims could be a bit wider than for other empires for intercept mechanics etc, considering that the Borg to not regularly colonize (but should be able to).
  13. Expanding the transwarp implementation. The current hubs are pretty cool already but I would like to explore some ideas of making this more canon: Not only from hub to hub but perhaps from hub to anywhere within a specified range? Perhaps introducing the hub as a sort of megastructure (planet-like, may or may not require a nebula…?) that also yields other bonuses or is the prerequisite for transwarp apertures? Perhaps even interspacial manifolds on transwarp routes that we could introduce? And what about starship short/medium-range transwarp travel without the hubs, as seen in many episodes? Increasing speed only but perhaps at a higher deuterium cost? Creating dynamic wormholes that could be exploited or destroyed by other civs, … – a lot would be possible but it needs to remain playable at a comparatively simple level, it should not lose its BotF character; sometimes less is more.
  14. Finally, beyond the Borg, and the above stuff will take some time for sure…, I would be intrigued to look a bit more into Galaxy generation (How big can we go? 3D?! More star/planet classes or space phenomena?) and associated performance.
I would be interested in your thoughts, and would volunteer to make and experiment with those changes (perhaps forking a branch for the moment).
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Re: Playing as the Borg

Post by Misfire »

Hello, I'm a relative newcomer here compared to others. Lots of good ideas, though I can't really comment much on the current state of the borg. I've only played a few games as borg, they were quite a while ago and I know Iceman has made changes since then. I'll comment on a couple things, though they aren't really related to the borg:
it should not lose its BotF character
Heh, well, a few less crashes than BOTF would be the goal :)
I would be intrigued to look a bit more into Galaxy generation (How big can we go? 3D?! More star/planet classes or space phenomena?) and associated performance.
There isn't really a limit on how big you could go, but at some point the game just becomes a bit overwhelming and tiresome to play. The auto colony management that was recently implemented should help with that, but the bigger you go, the more potential for performance issues in the late game. There are some unresolved issues that could improve late game performance to some degree.

Re: 3D galaxy: It could be done, but moving the universe to 3D, while trying to maintain the ease of navigation in BOTF would probably be challenging. It may lose its "BOTF character" that you mentioned.

Also, welcome to the forums!
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Re: Playing as the Borg

Post by Iceman »

Thanks for posting this, akido!
akido wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 12:35 pm 14. Finally, beyond the Borg, and the above stuff will take some time for sure…, I would be intrigued to look a bit more into Galaxy generation (How big can we go? 3D?! More star/planet classes or space phenomena?) and associated performance.
I tend to agree with what Misfire said.

Which other star classes and planet classes and stellar phenomena do you have in mind ?
Having more stellar phenomena, but them not having a different effect, seems kind of pointless. Some of the existing ones already feel kind of pointless, I think.

Re your database changes / mods, do you want to discuss them here, in this thread, or start a new one ? Or discuss them privately ?
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Re: Playing as the Borg

Post by akido »

Iceman wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 3:05 pm Thanks for posting this, akido!
akido wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 12:35 pm 14. Finally, beyond the Borg, and the above stuff will take some time for sure…, I would be intrigued to look a bit more into Galaxy generation (How big can we go? 3D?! More star/planet classes or space phenomena?) and associated performance.
I tend to agree with what Misfire said.

Which other star classes and planet classes and stellar phenomena do you have in mind ?
Having more stellar phenomena, but them not having a different effect, seems kind of pointless. Some of the existing ones already feel kind of pointless, I think.
Point taken, it was more of a brain dump. There are more important things and this would indeed depart too much from the concept of the game. There are other good games out there that do this, and probably already better than Supremacy ever could.

Bugs and performance/threading are a different topic, not sure how big a topic performance is though, would have to see about the late game with bigger galaxy sizes on modern computers (but slower computers could probably benefit.) --> Not for this thread.
Re your database changes / mods, do you want to discuss them here, in this thread, or start a new one ? Or discuss them privately ?
Happy to have that discussion in the dev forum but this thread is clearly not the right place.
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Re: Supremacy new release

Post by Hebrewhammer »

So I recently started another campaign with the Borg active. I noticed that I was the first to reveal them and that they only send a probe after my ships if they stay on their border too long. Other then that they just have their home planet with their fleet on it and nothing else is happening, I can basically ignore them completely and they wont be a threat even though I'm at war with them.
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Re: Supremacy new release

Post by Iceman »

Hi Hebrewhammer!
I just ran a quick test and "woke them up" with a scout, and they immediately started scouting and assimilated a minor civ.
Is there any colony or station close to Unimatrix they can attack/assimilate (and didn't)?
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Re: Supremacy new release

Post by Hebrewhammer »

There are no close by colonies, which I am assuming even though I made contact I was not with in range to actually have them actively assimilate anything.
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Re: Supremacy new release

Post by Iceman »

Well, they can't expand if there aren't any colonies nearby (minor civs or major civ colonies). Their scouts should be exploring though, right?
At some point we might allow the Borg to build colony ships (which they can right now IIRC, if the game is modded to add colony ships to their tech tree). Akido was working on a bunch of (other) changes to the Borg.
They don't build stations for expansion, as all they have is the TW Hub.
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Re: Supremacy new release

Post by Flocke »

Iceman wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 3:53 pm At some point we might allow the Borg to build colony ships
That doesn't fit the borg character at all. And it is great when different major races play completeley different.
They aren't interested in evolution, research and prospering. They only need resources to grow their fleet and drones to maintain their cubes.
Their reach they expand by a network of trans warp gateways, so maybe you should consider that as an alternative to the colonies or let them build planetary outposts for resource extraction. :wink:
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Re: Supremacy new release

Post by Iceman »

Moved the posts to this thread.
Flocke wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 6:33 am
Iceman wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 3:53 pm At some point we might allow the Borg to build colony ships
That doesn't fit the borg character at all. And it is great when different major races play completeley different.
Oh, but I totally agree with you. Still, some people want them to play similar to the other empires, and to be honest, they need to be made more interesting to play.

They aren't interested in evolution, research and prospering. They only need resources to grow their fleet and drones to maintain their cubes.
Again, agreed, and that's how they "currently" work. But, see above.

Their reach they expand by a network of trans warp gateways, so maybe you should consider that as an alternative to the colonies or let them build planetary outposts for resource extraction. :wink:
In my list of potential ideas I have this space station type for the Borg which they can build in systems with resources to harvest them - with the added benefit of extending range, being a station.
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Re: Supremacy new release

Post by Hebrewhammer »

I still have yet to download and test the most recent patch, however I have noticed that the borg are not much of a threat in my current games. I have realized that the borg AI refuses to build transwarp gates and instead relies entirely on assimilating colonies in order to expand the rang of it's ships. This leads to an issue where the borg chase off the other scout and colony ships of the other AI empires leaving a dead zone around there starting area where no colonies are build.

It is up to me if I wish to "help" the borg get started by making a close enough colony or just stay away like the other AI. This isolates them and gives all the time needed to upgrade tech and build a large fleet to deal with the few cubes they start with. In short they can be ignored until I am ready and willing to deal with them, at most during the game play they merely exist to create an exclusion zone around their starting area.
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Re: Playing as the Borg

Post by Iceman »

Yea, after AI empires were made to not colonize near Borg space, they (the Borg) have a harder time expanding (and consequently, developing). Like you said, unless they happen to have a minor civ close by, they stagnate.
I'll see what I can do about making them build stations for expansion.
Thanks!
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Re: Supremacy new release

Post by Iceman »

Hebrewhammer wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 5:21 pm I have realized that the borg AI refuses to build transwarp gates
They would only build hubs in their own colonies, to move fleets faster between them.
They should now (yet to be released in a new patch) build hubs for expansion too, though improvements are still needed (on when and where to build them).
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