Playing as the Borg

[geordie]

How is the "formula" for the Borg's fleet support? Does it need to be improved/tweaked?
Early vs mid vs late game.

This game you're playing now, was it started with the new range (12 IIRC) for the Borg Probe? If so, is it ok, or too much?

I have started that game with the last patch and 128x128 galaxy, just to check the Borg behavior in such game. As I understood there was the fleet support based on Borg population.
I suppose no changes for now are needed. I met minor races in a distance of 6, 12 and 16 sectors, maybe the Borg was lucky this time. And after some turns the Dominium started establishing colonies using 1-2 wormholes. The extended range of probes is a must to play the game.
The early game is a challenge, because each fleet of (about) 4 cubes must defend couple of sectors.
The mid game is more or less the same problem because of the expansion. And without that expansion any development of the fleet is not possible. I lost 3 cubes and 3 systems before reaching enough cubes. A lack of cooperation of attacks of other empires is a huge favor for the Borg now, but without that the Borg would probably had no chances.
The AI should also send bigger fleets against the Borg. An attacking fleet of 4 cruisers means nothing for even 1 cube.
The AI are not building any colonies near recognized Borg space.
There are still the same challenges for the Borg in such galaxy - mainly to have enough cubes to protect long borders, especially if a quick expansion is possible. But it took me 600 turns to get sufficient numer of cubes . At least the turns are far quicker in the Borg game. Now I have about 80 cubes and about 25 diamonds, but had no real contact with Cards and Roms.
I had several 'out of memory' errors between turns 200 and 300, caused by diplomatic actions of other empires in majority. Now I can play 20-30 turn with no problem.
I liked that game, despite monotonous construction part in Borg colonies. It was very tactical, permanently to chose what systems to attack and when.

[Iceman]

Moved the post here to better keep track of all things Borg.

The early game is a challenge, because each fleet of (about) 4 cubes must defend couple of sectors.

And you don't use Spheres to defend your territory, I guess?

The mid game is more or less the same problem because of the expansion. And without that expansion any development of the fleet is not possible.

Is the Intelligence bonus too slow?

I lost 3 cubes and 3 systems before reaching enough cubes.

Good to know that the empires are not taking any crap from the Borg, and fighting back.

A lack of cooperation of attacks of other empires is a huge favor for the Borg now, but without that the Borg would probably had no chances.

If we increase fleet support now (before Borg alliance is implemented), do you think it will be OP?

The AI should also send bigger fleets against the Borg. An attacking fleet of 4 cruisers means nothing for even 1 cube.

Do you mean a fleet to hunt Borg ships, or to assault Borg systems? I don't think empires hunt Cubes yet.

The AI are not building any colonies near recognized Borg space.

Yes, that's intended. According to your feedback IIRC?

There are still the same challenges for the Borg in such galaxy - mainly to have enough cubes to protect long borders, especially if a quick expansion is possible. But it took me 600 turns to get sufficient numer of cubes . At least the turns are far quicker in the Borg game. Now I have about 80 cubes and about 25 diamonds, but had no real contact with Cards and Roms.

We can increase fleet support (see above), or do you have another suggestion?

I liked that game, despite monotonous construction part in Borg colonies. It was very tactical, permanently to chose what systems to attack and when.

Unless we make them play like other empires (with upgrades and whatnot), I'm not sure what can be done about that.

[geordie]

And you don't use Spheres to defend your territory, I guess?

This time I used Cubes. I saw fleets of 10-15 ships on the map, so they would be challenging for Spheres.
I have a plan for future to play the Borg game using only Spheres.

Is the Intelligence bonus too slow?

I am not sure how the fleet support works for the Borg. I started building many intel buildings, it seemed working, but after some turns (I don't remember, about turn 250 or 300) I had no increase of the fleet support and having some Cubes in construction I started quick assimilation where it was possible.

If we increase fleet support now (before Borg alliance is implemented), do you think it will be OP?

We can increase fleet support (see above), or do you have another suggestion?

It is not necessary for now. I assume the Borg game should be challenging. So it would depend on future AI development.

Do you mean a fleet to hunt Borg ships, or to assault Borg systems? I don't think empires hunt Cubes yet.

I think the empires tried only to hunt systems, especially those with a shipyard.

BTW - there is one detail to improve - if some ships escape after a clash, they should be redirected to other system, not to return to the same one next turn.

Yes, that's intended. According to your feedback IIRC?

I only wanted to confirm that. The distance is at least 9 sectors, I think.

Unless we make them play like other empires (with upgrades and whatnot), I'm not sure what can be done about that.

Maybe the perfection must be monotonous?
I thought about an idea to develop the Borg technologies based on the assimilation of other races, but I was afraid that it would require a different game and coding, like a game within a game....

[Iceman]

This time I used Cubes. I saw fleets of 10-15 ships on the map, so they would be challenging for Spheres.
I have a plan for future to play the Borg game using only Spheres.

That's going to make assimilating systems a bit hard.
LMK if the maintenance cost of Spheres is ok'ish, or if it needs to be lowered a bit. (compared to Cubes?).

The whole point is to make the Borg need to use all ship types, each with a specific purpose.
(though using only one or two should also be possible, but much less effective)

I am not sure how the fleet support works for the Borg. I started building many intel buildings, it seemed working, but after some turns (I don't remember, about turn 250 or 300) I had no increase of the fleet support and having some Cubes in construction I started quick assimilation where it was possible.

Right after posting, it hit me that the Intel bonus only applies to the minimum support value, IIRC.
Was it useful, or too slow, while it applied?

Do you mean a fleet to hunt Borg ships, or to assault Borg systems? I don't think empires hunt Cubes yet.

I think the empires tried only to hunt systems, especially those with a shipyard.

Right, they do not hunt Borg ships yet (other than Probes that is). Was just checking if that's what you were seeing.

Was that Cube you mentioned already defending the system when the empire's fleet moved there? Or did you ambush it? I'm asking because it shouldn't have moved there if it detected the Cube and could not defeat it. If it did, I need to check what happened.

BTW - there is one detail to improve - if some ships escape after a clash, they should be redirected to other system, not to return to the same one next turn.

They do.
If you have a savegame that reproduces this, please post it here.

I only wanted to confirm that. The distance is at least 9 sectors, I think.

IIRC it's 8.

Unless we make them play like other empires (with upgrades and whatnot), I'm not sure what can be done about that.

Maybe the perfection must be monotonous?

Isn't it always?

I thought about an idea to develop the Borg technologies based on the assimilation of other races, but I was afraid that it would require a different game and coding, like a game within a game....

Something like that has been suggested before, so no worries, post your thoughts and we'll see

[geordie]

Right after posting, it hit me that the Intel bonus only applies to the minimum support value, IIRC.
Was it useful, or too slow, while it applied?

As I wrote, it was useful in the early game. It would allow to avoid a loop: you need assimilated systems to get more ships, but you need more ships to assimilate them.
But a clear rules might be useful - how the Intel bonus works and how long

Was that Cube you mentioned already defending the system when the empire's fleet moved there? Or did you ambush it? I'm asking because it shouldn't have moved there if it detected the Cube and could not defeat it. If it did, I need to check what happened.

As I remember it was in the entry of an wormhole. A Diamond and a Cube were enough to defend the wormhole entry even against 10+ Klingon ships.

Something like that has been suggested before, so no worries, post your thoughts and we'll see

OK, so a limited concept for now.
After assimilating a planet the Borg could use an Intel building to investigate artifacts and recognize alien tech, for example moon habitats or a tech for resources in the system (dilithium, duranium, deuterium). After any successful investigation a science building might be construct to reserch the technology and to get a % bonus to the resource or increase max population.
Something like that.

[Iceman]

But a clear rules might be useful - how the Intel bonus works and how long

I thought I had already explained it in this thread.
The standard fleet support rules apply, but there is a minimum value for it; that value is 400 base, and it increases every turn with Intel output (intel/1000 IIRC). The highest of those 2 values (standard and minimum) is taken.
This might be temporary. Instead of being hardcoded, the base value will be provided by a Building bonus - I'll add that the next time we make savegame breaking changes.

As I remember it was in the entry of an wormhole. A Diamond and a Cube were enough to defend the wormhole entry even against 10+ Klingon ships.

I was replying to your comment about a Klingon fleet of 4 ships attacking a colony, and a Cube defeating that fleet.
Not sure how that shifted to 15+ ships vs a Cube and a Diamond in a wormhole?

[geordie]

Do you think fleet support for the Borg should be changed If so, any suggestions ?
Anything that you feel is not right or should be changed, please report.
Empires don't gang up on the Borg yet. Do they put up a fight individually?

My last Borg game was again the huge+ galaxy and for that the fleet support was OK. The Borg queen (me???) was struggling with the number of ships available, but for me any easier approach would make no sense. I used 'Many' as a minor races parameter, again because of the galaxy size. I have no idea if the fleet support would be OK in the medium galaxy. Smaller ones probably don't make sense as well in the Borg game - I assume there would be no time for the Fleet Support based on the population.
As I has written before the biggest problem for the Borg is to defend stretched borders. As long as AI does not use that, by combine attacks of more empires, the fleet support looks sufficient. For now the empires not being attack by the Borg try to stand aside (like the Dominium).
I noticed one big problem - please have a look at Qo'noS system (still hidden, but I am pretty sure it is the Qo'noS) in my last save. I do not understand what the Klingon ships are doing there, being completely passive, once the Borg and the Roms are eating Klingon empire piece by piece.

[Iceman]

The Borg queen (me???)

There is no Borg king

was struggling with the number of ships available, but for me any easier approach would make no sense.

As I has written before the biggest problem for the Borg is to defend stretched borders. As long as AI does not use that, by combine attacks of more empires, the fleet support looks sufficient. For now the empires not being attack by the Borg try to stand aside (like the Dominium).

Do you find the planetary shield to not be enough a (basic) defense ?

I noticed one big problem - please have a look at Qo'noS system (still hidden, but I am pretty sure it is the Qo'noS) in my last save. I do not understand what the Klingon ships are doing there, being completely passive, once the Borg and the Roms are eating Klingon empire piece by piece.

Yeah, I'll look into that. My guess would be that it is a defense fleet, but it is too large for that.

[Iceman]

I noticed one big problem - please have a look at Qo'noS system (still hidden, but I am pretty sure it is the Qo'noS) in my last save. I do not understand what the Klingon ships are doing there, being completely passive, once the Borg and the Roms are eating Klingon empire piece by piece.

The fleet wanted to go kick your butt, but a smallish detail in the code wouldn't let it
Found and fixed the issue, along with similar issues for other (offensive) fleet tasks.
I think the AI will be somewhat more challenging now.

Sorry to have taken so long to fix, but your map is so large that testing takes forever.
I'll upload a new patch soon.

[the6the]

In other races, idle production is added to the ship building. This is not the case with the Borg in my game. Is that as intended?

[Iceman]

Yep, it's intended.

[Iceman]

Just finished a game with Borg through scientific victory. no bugs found.
There's one thing that been bugging me (no pun intended)..

Just out of curiosity, what was the starting tech level, and how many turns did it take?

Was there anything you felt could be improved?

The assault screen is all muddled up.. but only sometimes. Other times I can see the the shield, pop and garison bars just fine. Other times I get this:

That's odd.
I've seen something similar reported a very long time ago, but in the star system panel (which doesn't have an impact on any data display); I don't think it was ever reported in the assault screen, but I may be wrong.

[the6the]

Just finished a game with Borg through scientific victory. no bugs found.
There's one thing that been bugging me (no pun intended)..

Just out of curiosity, what was the starting tech level, and how many turns did it take?

Was there anything you felt could be improved?

The assault screen is all muddled up.. but only sometimes. Other times I can see the the shield, pop and garison bars just fine. Other times I get this:

That's odd.
I've seen something similar reported a very long time ago, but in the star system panel (which doesn't have an impact on any data display); I don't think it was ever reported in the assault screen, but I may be wrong.

Starting tech level was developed (Borg was all at 12), victory achieved around turn 485 - it must be pointed out that I didn't even start building research building until later in the game. Galaxy: Large Irregular, minors: some, difficulty: Hard.

Thoughts: Completely different feel to play, which is good. There is much less to worry about when playing as the Borg, no tech progress, no bad effects to morale, no diplomacy, and the ships are so strong, there is little to fear on the map. Turns are also quicker because of this. It's fun. You do grow overconfident when playing them, and this is kinda cool. I.e. I lost a probe in the following fight: 2 probes vs 2x Klingon destroyers (1) and a Klingon colony ship. I had to retreat with the last probe, as I would have lost it too. No Klingon ships lost.

Improvement: Well I'm not sure. This game was pretty easy. Should it have been? Given the starting stats - probably. Oh and the voice-overs are crap
Things I'd like to see:
- a kind of terrorism within the Borg (Unimatrix zero) happening if the system doesn't have a certain number of intel (like in other Majors) by a certain turn of its existence. The effects of Unimatrix Zero? I have no idea. Anywhere between and including: Construction output halved - to - buildings destroyed.
- A Borg to the Borg. Species 8472 randomly appearing out of nowhere and wreaking havoc in DQ - specifically on the Borg - as a persisting random event of sorts
- The search for the Omega particle implemented somehow. perhaps we could utilize the demon planets for this? For a special victory..

Now I'm trying hard again, but I'm cranking up the starting tech level to supreme, as the Borg always start at tech 12, but the other Majors will have a much better starting point, and definitely put up a much better fight. If I see that it's still too easy, I'll switch to impossible. If even that too is still too easy, then I'll make some suggestions to tweak

[the6the]

Yep, it's intended.

Good. Just checking. They're OP as it is.

[Iceman]

Yep, it's intended.

Good. Just checking. They're OP as it is.

Yeah, that's why I removed the bonus for them