Playing as the Borg

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Re: Playing as the Borg

Post by Iceman »

the6the wrote: Tue Nov 21, 2023 3:46 pm To be fair, they're probably still rather far from Unimatrix01 and would need to build an outpost do get significant ships to attack the system.
Yes, they are.

Another (easier) way to do it, is to make the entire galaxy gang up on the Borg after they have assimilated a certain amount of systems (galaxy map dependent).
But they definitely should be realized as a larger threat at some point.
An anti-Borg alliance is part of the design, yes.

Also, does the AI treat any empire's HQ as a major target, and focus their attacks in that direction? (providing they're at war, of course) I'm guessing it does, but if not, perhaps that would be something to think about.
No, not really, they target the juicier systems. The homesystems usually are really juicy :up:
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Re: Playing as the Borg

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I have to say, I love the whole arrangement now with the Borg. The Processing Node is great being in Dilitium-only systems, and the combo with the shipbuilding bonus in idle systems really rewards having a massive system. Same goes for the Resonance chamber being in those systems, it has slowed the once ludicrous rate at which the Borg were gaining research. Great work!

There's still some balancing issues though. As you can see in the savegame
SP Borg Large Irregular 233.sav
(734.63 KiB) Downloaded 125 times
, the FS is quite high, and it can't be utilized, as there isn't enough resources to do so, not by a long shot. Waiting for the resources to climb would just be.. boring.
The good news is, in this scenario, the Dilithium-Duranium balance was pretty spot-on. Dueterium, while also quite balanced at the beginning and mid game, is on its usual steep now climb though the late game.
This is a NO MINORS game, so I take this all with a grain of salt. But in this case, the FS should be lowered.

I will be testing the other end of the spectrum wit MANY MINORS next and see what happens in regards to the FS and resource balance. Perhaps the FS won't be as high, since resources should be more readily available right from the start of the game.

A thought just crossed my mind.. is there anything Dueterium could be used on in late game for the Borg?
For instance - A building locked behind a tech prereq, that wastes Dueterium in return for.. something?
Maybe an advanced "Tritanium" forge? Dilithium forge? Forge of Many Things? :lol:
But also with a limitation of sorts.. one per system, but perhaps a Gas Giant, or Chrystaline Giant in the system as a prereq.. so it's less spammable

It's just a brainfart, but it could be a way to kill two birds..

Let's see how the MANY MINORS games go first, to see if there's any merit to my newest brainfart.
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Re: Playing as the Borg

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the6the wrote: Sat Dec 02, 2023 5:43 pm I have to say, I love the whole arrangement now with the Borg. The Processing Node is great being in Dilitium-only systems, and the combo with the shipbuilding bonus in idle systems really rewards having a massive system.
:up:
The fact that it is consistent with the other empires makes it a win-win.

Same goes for the Resonance chamber being in those systems, it has slowed the once ludicrous rate at which the Borg were gaining research. Great work!
:cool:
Yeah, I think we're getting there, to the place where the Borg might be more balanced - with the help of you and geordie, thanks for your patience and dedication!

There's still some balancing issues though. As you can see in the savegameSP Borg Large Irregular 233.sav, the FS is quite high, and it can't be utilized, as there isn't enough resources to do so, not by a long shot. Waiting for the resources to climb would just be.. boring.
The yet to be released version has the pop support for the Borg reduced to its previous (0.3) value, 3/4 the current (0.4). It's possible it is still too high though - you would have ~2200 free support in that game I think, and you're currently building 5 ships. If it is still too high, options could be:
Reducing it even further, but it might impact the early game.
Increasing maintenance of TWHs, but it might impact the AI's ability to build them for range expansion.
Increasing maintenance of ships, but it might make the early game slower.

The good news is, in this scenario, the Dilithium-Duranium balance was pretty spot-on.
Yeah, the stars aligned on that one. The duranium building is 100% output, and the average resource generation ratio roughly coincides with the Borg warships' resource ratio :mrgreen:

Dueterium, while also quite balanced at the beginning and mid game, is on its usual steep now climb though the late game.
Did you use transwarp movement much? Maybe we need to increase the deuterium consumption for that - it was greatly decreased recently. Maybe a middle ground between the original values and current ones.

I will be testing the other end of the spectrum wit MANY MINORS next and see what happens in regards to the FS and resource balance. Perhaps the FS won't be as high, since resources should be more readily available right from the start of the game.
I'll wait for your feedback with antecipation!

A thought just crossed my mind.. is there anything Dueterium could be used on in late game for the Borg?
For instance - A building locked behind a tech prereq, that wastes Dueterium in return for.. something?
Maybe an advanced "Tritanium" forge? Dilithium forge? Forge of Many Things? :lol:
Or the Resonation Chamber? :wink: Though you don't have any activated yet in your game.
Or have the Tritanium Forge and/or the Processing Node cost deuterium instead of energy.
Or simply change the Deuterium Synthesizer to +1 instead of +2.

But I like your ideas!

But also with a limitation of sorts.. one per system, but perhaps a Gas Giant, or Chrystaline Giant in the system as a prereq.. so it's less spammable
Hmm, Crystalline Giants, Dilithium Forge... there might be something there.

It's just a brainfart, but it could be a way to kill two birds..
Keep farting away! Uh, you know... :mrgreen:

Let's see how the MANY MINORS games go first, to see if there's any merit to my newest brainfart.
:up:
If you read this before starting that game, use this file (replace the one in \Resources\Tables), it changes pop support to 0.25, which makes fleet support in that game 1545 (less than half).
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Re: Playing as the Borg

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A fart of my own, which I have entertained for a while:
What if the Borg would not have population support at all, and instead had a building that would be buildable in assimilated systems, which would provide Fleet Support? The Hive Link (currently deactivated) would be perfect for that (it was actually what I wanted it for initially).
This building should probably be spawned on assimilation (no need to be built), so that you could immediately get access to building more ships. The only difference to the current implementation is that it would be a fixed amount, instead of depending on population. Can be controlled better I think.
Unimatrix would keep its +400 FS from Unicomplex, and also have the HL; the HL would add an additional +50? (currently Unimatrix gives +100 through pop [0.4 * 250 pop]; and only +62.5 with 0.25, in the file I attached)
With these numbers, in your game, you would have 3500 FS total, 2650 FS cost, which would amount to 850 free FS (with 450 under construction).
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Re: Playing as the Borg

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I'm afraid I didn't read this before starting a new game, but will do for the next one! I wanted to see how this FS arrangement faired anyway in a many minor game. It will be interesting to see the difference especially in early game, where FS was previously an issue.

BUT
I came across an issue in a new game with many minors I think is worth your attention. Unfortunately I didn't save until this savegame when I noticed it:
After assimilating the Kradin system, the pop was larger than the food facilities. Usually in the Borg games, the AI automatically makes enough food buildings for the entire pop upon assimilation, it didn't happen in this case, and I don't know why.

Oh and yes! In the previous game with no minors I downright abused the TWHs together with the wormholes available! But, if you do reduce the Deuterium to +1, it will probably be an issue in early, and mid game too. How much is the Deut cost for using TWHs now?
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Re: Playing as the Borg

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Iceman wrote: Sat Dec 02, 2023 8:02 pm A fart of my own, which I have entertained for a while:
What if the Borg would not have population support at all, and instead had a building that would be buildable in assimilated systems, which would provide Fleet Support? The Hive Link (currently deactivated) would be perfect for that (it was actually what I wanted it for initially).
This building should probably be spawned on assimilation (no need to be built), so that you could immediately get access to building more ships. The only difference to the current implementation is that it would be a fixed amount, instead of depending on population. Can be controlled better I think.
Unimatrix would keep its +400 FS from Unicomplex, and also have the HL; the HL would add an additional +50? (currently Unimatrix gives +100 through pop [0.4]; +62.5 with 0.25, the file I attached)
With these numbers, in your game, you would have 3500 FS total, 2650 FS cost, which would amount to 850 free FS (with 450 under construction).
I love it! Sounds really cool, and easier to control!
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Re: Playing as the Borg

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the6the wrote: Sat Dec 02, 2023 8:04 pm I'm afraid I didn't read this before starting a new game, but will do for the next one! I wanted to see how this FS arrangement faired anyway in a many minor game. It will be interesting to see the difference especially in early game, where FS was previously an issue.
Good point.
But if you would like to test it anyway, the game does not yet serialize the tables (exactly for testing purposes), so you can change those values at any time and watch the result/impact, and even keep playing with the new values.

BUT
I came across an issue in a new game with many minors I think is worth your attention. Unfortunately I didn't save until this savegame when I noticed it:
After assimilating the Kradin system, the pop was larger than the food facilities. Usually in the Borg games, the AI automatically makes enough food buildings for the entire pop upon assimilation, it didn't happen in this case, and I don't know why.
Hmm, that's odd. I'm looking at it right now. Will have to check the code. Could it be taking the food bonus into account? :???:
Thanks!

Oh and yes! In the previous game with no minors I downright abused the TWHs together with the wormholes available! But, if you do reduce the Deuterium to +1, it will probably be an issue in early, and mid game too.
Yes, I think so too.

How much is the Deut cost for using TWHs now?
Each ship will spend an amount equal to its FuelReserves value each time it uses the TWHs. The "problem" is that that value is not shown anywhere in game, it can only be checked in the TechObjectDatabase.xml file.
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Re: Playing as the Borg

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Iceman wrote: Sat Dec 02, 2023 8:21 pm
the6the wrote: Sat Dec 02, 2023 8:04 pm I came across an issue in a new game with many minors I think is worth your attention. Unfortunately I didn't save until this savegame when I noticed it:
After assimilating the Kradin system, the pop was larger than the food facilities. Usually in the Borg games, the AI automatically makes enough food buildings for the entire pop upon assimilation, it didn't happen in this case, and I don't know why.
Hmm, that's odd. I'm looking at it right now. Will have to check the code. Could it be taking the food bonus into account? :???:
It's most likely the issue that geordie already mentioned, resulting from the new terraforming mechanic for the Borg.
For each new planet that is terraformed, the pop gets maximized for whatever reason I have yet to find, which for non-Terran species (the Kradin prefer Jungle planets) causes this strange behavior.
Will try to fix that tomorrow.
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Re: Playing as the Borg

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Actually, it seems that after the 1st planet gets terraformed, pop is increased (reset to the amount of pop before assimilation?) :???:
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Re: Playing as the Borg

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Ok, I think I might have an idea about what's going on. I have a question on how to solve this.

To give an example from your game: there's this other minor civ that does not prefer Terran planets (the Akari maybe? can't recall right now). They have 130 pop before assimilation, pop is maxed for them (Jungle preference).
When the Borg assimilate their system, the SitRep says 90 pop were assimilated (conversion from Jungle preference [Ankari] to Terran [Borg]) and the colony gets 90 (Borg) pop. When the first (unterraformed) planet finishes terraforming, max pop for the system increases and pop is reset back to the original 130. In this case, this new planet (plus the home planet) is enough to hold all the 130 original pop, and there is no problem with food because both 90 and 130 pop require 2 Food PFs. It was probably not the case with the Kradin though, which resulted in that "starvation" situation.

So the question is, should the initial pop (after assimilation):
1 - be set to 90 and remain at 90 after terraforming (this might look odd as you assimilate a 130 pop system and the SitRep says only 90 got assimilated - which is what currently happens)
2 - be kept at 130 (this might also look odd as for a few turns the system's pop will read 130/90 - this makes terraforming the rest of the planets faster though, and the colony will potentially have more starting PFs); not sure if there are other consequences, will have to test

Neither situation is ideal, but this only happens for the non-Terran races.
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Re: Playing as the Borg

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I've found that there are many situations where there are significant reductions in drones (the Kazon come to mind) after assimilation compared to initial pop, so if I had to choose, I think the 1st situation is much less confusing. For some reason you got less drones than there were pop before assimilation, end of story.
The second proposal is a little confusing, even though it might be better for the player in the long run.
I'd keep it as easy as possible.
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Re: Playing as the Borg

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The Kazon are also one of those races, they prefer Desert planets IIRC.
We can add a reason in the SitRep, if we can make one up :grin:
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Re: Playing as the Borg

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Iceman wrote: Sun Dec 03, 2023 7:13 am So the question is, should the initial pop (after assimilation):
1 - be set to 90 and remain at 90 after terraforming (this might look odd as you assimilate a 130 pop system and the SitRep says only 90 got assimilated - which is what currently happens)
2 - be kept at 130 (this might also look odd as for a few turns the system's pop will read 130/90 - this makes terraforming the rest of the planets faster though, and the colony will potentially have more starting PFs); not sure if there are other consequences, will have to test

Neither situation is ideal, but this only happens for the non-Terran races.
Anyone else playing the Borg want to chime in on this :?:


Should we increase the minimum number of industry PFs spawned in an assimilated system to 4 (instead of 3) :?:

---

BTW, I roughly doubled deuterium consumption for TWH movement for all ships.
I'll release a new patch for testing shortly.
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Re: Playing as the Borg

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Increasing it to 4 will definitely make the Borg expand faster, and as a player I would definitely welcome that. Will it be too overpowering? we'll have to test to see.
Right now (with 3 PFs) it takes the Borg 23 turns to make a shipyard. At 4 that goes down to 17. I know we can also tweak the building cost of anything, if it turns out to be an issue to any one segment.
I vote to give this a try, and see how it goes
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Re: Playing as the Borg

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the6the wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 3:14 pm I vote to give this a try, and see how it goes
Ok, I'll add the 4th only if assimilated pop is 250 or more.

Re the different pop values issue, for now I'll leave it as it is, as it is low priority. I've changed the SitRep to show the full assimilated pop, and we'll think of it as the "missing" drones being busy terraforming the rest of the planets, and eventually they become available to be assigned to other tasks. :cool:
The spawned alcoves were changed to cover all the assimilated pop, so the "starvation" issue should not occur again.

And the patch I'll be uploading now has the new Hive Link / no pop support mechanic mentioned above.

Lots of stuff to test :wink:
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