Playing as the Borg

[geordie]

I have a feeling that it would be more military event, not a terrorist one.
Is it possible to create a 3 turn event without adding a new race?
For example - just some hot thoughts:
1st turn - if the targeted system is covered by the Subspace Analyser (in the system or nearby) - there would be a warning about noticed 8472 presence in the vicinity.
2nd turn - the bioship appears in the system
3rd turn - a conclusion - if the Borg has enough ships in the system (definitely more than 1 cube, depending on assumed bioship strength) the bioship is eliminated with some losses on the Borg side (1-2 ships), if the Borg has no ships in the attacked systems some pop (50 drones?) and some building (1-2 random buildings) are destroyed.

[Iceman]

I have a feeling that it would be more military event, not a terrorist one.

You misunderstood me.
I wasn't saying this should be a terrorism event (that will be Unimatrix Zero ).
I was saying that we could use the same approach to trying to prevent this event as the one we use to try to prevent terrorism events for the other empires - that is, the higher the intel output of the colony, the lower the chance that the event will trigger on that colony. It was just an idea to make intel useful for the Borg too (though it is used for minimum fleet support, but it is kind of a hidden feature, which are usually not a good idea).

[geordie]

I wasn't simply feeling how it might be connected.
But...
What about some intel levels allowing an earlier prediction, depending on system intel, that a bioship could appear in given system (or scanned area) in 2 or 3 turns ahead? That could allow the Borg to prepare a defense.

[The_Undying_Nephalim]

Some Borg suggestions and ideas.


Borg Colonizing Planets
I have a proposition that the Borg should be able to instantly colonize "unterraformed" star systems. Once colonized, each planet very slowly "auto terraforms" to the Borg biome, at a slower rate than a Colony Ship would. This would allow the Borg to very quickly grab star systems, however it would take them much longer to fully develop them to full power and population.

Using Minor Races to expand
I really like that this idea seems to already be very much considered. I have a suggestion that perhaps with canon quadrants, maybe the Delta Quadrant has a bias towards spawning slightly more Minor Races? Alternatively, maybe in Random Quadrant games the Borg are always spawned in a quadrant on their own with a bias of more Minor Races?

- On the Borg being "More Powerful" than the other Civilizations
I have two arguments to make on a reduction of the Borg's "power," at least during the early portions of the game. My first argument stems from the premise of BOTF itself: in the abstract it's about the "birth" of all of these different civilizations you play as, and therefore at their weakest point. Regardless of anyone's perception of the Borg's power, I don't think it's a stretch for people who start the game to imagine that this is when the Borg are just getting out into the galaxy and have not amassed their powerful technologies from assimilation yet.

My second argument actually stems from a misunderstanding of the Borg, both by later Star Trek (Voyager in particular) and a lot of mods and games that they appear in. Don't worry I'll try not to rant like a Star Trek nerd!
There is a tendency to portray the Borg as inherently super powerful and unstoppable, usually only some clever trick or equally brute force as the only means to even compete with them. In the first few appearance of the Borg in TNG though, this is simply not the case. In the Enterprise's first encounter with the Borg, they manage to damage over a whopping 20% of an entire Borg cube with just two phaser blasts! If the Enterprise had kept up the attack, they could have completely destroyed the Cube with only a few more barrages of firepower. Does this sound like a super powerful unstoppable ship? The implication here as that inherently, the Borg's technology is not exactly "powerful" in relation to that used by the Federation. Rather the Borg's terrifying strength comes from their ability to very quickly learn from their loses and mistakes, changing their strategy and technology to counter whatever manages to defeat them. Simply put, the Borg actually become stronger by losing. The Borg should not start out with super powerful ships: their ships should get stronger and better each time they lose. This leads into another gameplay point:

Borg "researching new technology"
I propose that Borg ships destroyed in combat actually provide an increase to Research, to abstractly represent them analyzing their defeat in battle and coming up with methods to counter those loses. This could also be applied to Borg ships that survive combat too, perhaps every damage point a Borg ship receives increases Research by a point as well? There could even be Borg ships that boost this Research bonus, like Probes analyzing the outcomes of battle. The idea here is to simulate that the Borg are becoming more powerful as a response to them losing to enemies that they have not had time to assimilate or understand yet.

I think the common thread here I'm trying to get at is that the Borg probably should play more like a rolling snowball than a giant hammer, where their initial power is not that far ahead of everyone else but it can scale exponentially at a frightening rate. This could also create some interesting risk/reward situations where you might want to be careful going on a warpath against the Borg and accidentally spiking their technology level by wiping out a bunch of their ships.

[Iceman]

Borg Colonizing Planets
I have a proposition that the Borg should be able to instantly colonize "unterraformed" star systems. Once colonized, each planet very slowly "auto terraforms" to the Borg biome, at a slower rate than a Colony Ship would. This would allow the Borg to very quickly grab star systems, however it would take them much longer to fully develop them to full power and population.

What do you mean by colonize, in this context? One planet would be instantly terraformed, and the rest would auto terraform slowly? You need at least one terraformed planet to colonize a system. These sound like silly questions, but I get the feeling that you probably meant that there wouldn't be an initial planet being terraformed.

Using Minor Races to expand
I really like that this idea seems to already be very much considered. I have a suggestion that perhaps with canon quadrants, maybe the Delta Quadrant has a bias towards spawning slightly more Minor Races? Alternatively, maybe in Random Quadrant games the Borg are always spawned in a quadrant on their own with a bias of more Minor Races?

Excellent idea! Will look into it later today.
The Borg are already spawned in a quadrant on their own, BTW; both in Canon and Random home quadrants.

- On the Borg being "More Powerful" than the other Civilizations
I have two arguments to make on a reduction of the Borg's "power," at least during the early portions of the game. My first argument stems from the premise of BOTF itself: in the abstract it's about the "birth" of all of these different civilizations you play as, and therefore at their weakest point. Regardless of anyone's perception of the Borg's power, I don't think it's a stretch for people who start the game to imagine that this is when the Borg are just getting out into the galaxy and have not amassed their powerful technologies from assimilation yet.

The game does have some provisions regarding this, namely the Borg start the game in sort of a stasis mode; their ships will not move for a number of turns, depending on factors like galaxy size, starting tech level, etc. This can go from zero turns for a Huge galaxy Supreme techlevel start, to something like 200~300 turns for Early starts. First contact with any civ will void the stasis.
The Borg should only be included in the game in the larger galaxy sizes, and I recently added such a warning dialog.

My second argument actually stems from a misunderstanding of the Borg, both by later Star Trek (Voyager in particular) and a lot of mods and games that they appear in. Don't worry I'll try not to rant like a Star Trek nerd!

There is a tendency to portray the Borg as inherently super powerful and unstoppable, usually only some clever trick or equally brute force as the only means to even compete with them. In the first few appearance of the Borg in TNG though, this is simply not the case. In the Enterprise's first encounter with the Borg, they manage to damage over a whopping 20% of an entire Borg cube with just two phaser blasts! If the Enterprise had kept up the attack, they could have completely destroyed the Cube with only a few more barrages of firepower. Does this sound like a super powerful unstoppable ship?

Uh, it's the Enterprise...
I'm not sure the Klingons or the Romulans would have the same outcome.

The implication here as that inherently, the Borg's technology is not exactly "powerful" in relation to that used by the Federation.

I'm not sure I agree with this, but your point about gameplay is solid, of course. We need to make them "balanced" in the sense that the other empires need to have a chance to survive - that is, be playable.

Rather the Borg's terrifying strength comes from their ability to very quickly learn from their loses and mistakes, changing their strategy and technology to counter whatever manages to defeat them. Simply put, the Borg actually become stronger by losing. The Borg should not start out with super powerful ships: their ships should get stronger and better each time they lose. This leads into another gameplay point:

At lower starting levels, they start the game with Probes only. Tactical Cubes, their most powerful ship, is unlocked by tech.
Notice that they need Cubes, which are somewhat expensive to build, to assimilate systems; Spheres are mostly for protection.
While I see your point, they don't actually need to lose too many times to adapt; making their early ships be vulnerable might trigger kind of a catch 22 situation - they lose ships to adapt and gain tech, but they lose the ability to expand and grow, and replacing those lost ships takes a very long time.

Borg "researching new technology"
I propose that Borg ships destroyed in combat actually provide an increase to Research, to abstractly represent them analyzing their defeat in battle and coming up with methods to counter those loses. This could also be applied to Borg ships that survive combat too, perhaps every damage point a Borg ship receives increases Research by a point as well? There could even be Borg ships that boost this Research bonus, like Probes analyzing the outcomes of battle. The idea here is to simulate that the Borg are becoming more powerful as a response to them losing to enemies that they have not had time to assimilate or understand yet.

Interesting idea.
Probes, or Diamonds - the latter (Command ship) don't have much of a role for the Borg; this could be one of their distinctive factors.
To notice that the Borg also gain XP in combat, which increases their targeting abilities, and their damage control. IIRC they always start as Green, which makes them somewhat "weak", relying exclusively on raw staying power - until they gain XP that is.

I think the common thread here I'm trying to get at is that the Borg probably should play more like a rolling snowball than a giant hammer, where their initial power is not that far ahead of everyone else but it can scale exponentially at a frightening rate. This could also create some interesting risk/reward situations where you might want to be careful going on a warpath against the Borg and accidentally spiking their technology level by wiping out a bunch of their ships.

They are somewhat a rolling snowball already. Their major weakness is having the assets to protect a large territory, as geordie will confirm I'm sure
Their bane will be an Anti-Borg alliance, when it is implemented.

Great feedback, I'll come back to this post later, with more time.
Thanks!

[Iceman]

Using Minor Races to expand
(...)
Alternatively, maybe in Random Quadrant games the Borg are always spawned in a quadrant on their own with a bias of more Minor Races?

Done. Will do Canon next.

[geordie]

Using Minor Races to expand
I really like that this idea seems to already be very much considered. I have a suggestion that perhaps with canon quadrants, maybe the Delta Quadrant has a bias towards spawning slightly more Minor Races? Alternatively, maybe in Random Quadrant games the Borg are always spawned in a quadrant on their own with a bias of more Minor Races?

Excellent idea! Will look into it later today.
The Borg are already spawned in a quadrant on their own, BTW; both in Canon and Random home quadrants.

In my last game as the Borg the nearest minor race was 26 sectors from the Unimatrix One (in a 120x120 galaxy).
It was far tougher start from the Borg and after first encounters with major races the Borg were more vulnerable, especially in the fleet strength, because I had to build Assemblers instead of cubes with a small increase of the fleet support.

But in the end it was far more fun and such game was more interesting and challenging for me.

[geordie]

After the last game I would also propose to exclude the Hive Link from the initial colony start-up facilities, but replace it by one additional Construction Unit. Maybe the Hive Link could require some energy (25?) but it is for further discussion.
It would be some competition between fleet support and fleet range then (to build a shipyard first or not?).

[Iceman]

In my last game as the Borg the nearest minor race was 26 sectors from the Unimatrix One (in a 120x120 galaxy).
It was far tougher start from the Borg and after first encounters with major races the Borg were more vulnerable, especially in the fleet strength, because I had to build Assemblers instead of cubes with a small increase of the fleet support.

But in the end it was far more fun and such game was more interesting and challenging for me.

So, you think their quadrant should have more minor civs, or keep it the way it is/was

We should also consider the AI playing the Borg. It might not handle that situation with the closest minor at 26 sectors away all too well, I think. Then again, I have never really checked, so they might actually handle it minimally well.

[Iceman]

After the last game I would also propose to exclude the Hive Link from the initial colony start-up facilities, but replace it by one additional Construction Unit. Maybe the Hive Link could require some energy (25?) but it is for further discussion.
It would be some competition between fleet support and fleet range then (to build a shipyard first or not?).

The "purpose" of the Hive Link is supposed to be linking new colonies to the Collective, hence it spawning on assimilation (should be a priority, "canon"-wise). That said, gameplay should trump design if the benefits are evident.
In this case, is having that decision point in every colony you assimilate all that important? Or is it something that will get dilluted over time, and become more of a nuissance/chore than an interesting decision?

Interesting suggestion.

[geordie]

So, you think their quadrant should have more minor civs, or keep it the way it is/was

I would combine that with the difficulty level, if it's possible. Easier game = more minor civs, of course specifically for the Borg game.

We should also consider the AI playing the Borg. It might not handle that situation with the closest minor at 26 sectors away all too well, I think. Then again, I have never really checked, so they might actually handle it minimally well.

I might be slightly mistaken, but playing other races I have never seen more than one TWH built by the Borg Maybe there was an unique game with two TWHs). So maybe here is the problem.

[Iceman]

I would combine that with the difficulty level, if it's possible. Easier game = more minor civs, of course specifically for the Borg game.

Tha's if the player is playing the Borg But if it's the AI playing the Borg (which is more consistent with the AIMode concept), it's exactly the opposite.

Right now it only depends on Star Density, and it adds 2~4 extra minors, which is not that much in larger galaxies.

I might be slightly mistaken, but playing other races I have never seen more than one TWH built by the Borg Maybe there was an unique game with two TWHs). So maybe here is the problem.

I'll try to check that, thanks!

[geordie]

Sorry, I forgot that earlier, but there is other parameter for the number of minor races, so I think no reason to double it.
Unless a 3 dimension matrix would be better: minor race parameter x galaxy size x AI mode

For me the current settings are OK. I tried once the Minor Race set as 'Many' and it was too easy for me to get some power quicker.
I suppose to add 'None' to the choice would be quite funny as an extreme game, but such start might be boring in fact.

[the6the]

Sorry, I forgot that earlier, but there is other parameter for the number of minor races, so I think no reason to double it.
Unless a 3 dimension matrix would be better: minor race parameter x galaxy size x AI mode

For me the current settings are OK. I tried once the Minor Race set as 'Many' and it was too easy for me to get some power quicker.
I suppose to add 'None' to the choice would be quite funny as an extreme game, but such start might be boring in fact.

It depends whether you find a working WH reasonably close to Unimatrix01 or not.

I was testing Borg games on different settings, and I must say the most fun and challenging ones were when minor races were set to none.

[Iceman]

Sorry, I forgot that earlier, but there is other parameter for the number of minor races, so I think no reason to double it.
Unless a 3 dimension matrix would be better: minor race parameter x galaxy size x AI mode

At the time I was coding it, I thought about making it also depend on Minor Frequency (as a reinforcing factor, like you mentioned), but the tests I ran looked rather acceptable.

For me the current settings are OK. I tried once the Minor Race set as 'Many' and it was too easy for me to get some power quicker.
I suppose to add 'None' to the choice would be quite funny as an extreme game, but such start might be boring in fact.

In a 120x120 galaxy, yeah, I guess
In a standard Huge though, not so much. That's why the6the's experience differs from yours.
Wherever possible, I try to use the map's width/height instead of galaxy size (label). In this case, your 120x120 will only add 2~4 (Sparse~Dense stars) extra minors too (just like in a Huge map), which is not much in relative terms, so I guess everyone will be happy