What does Ship Agility do exactly?

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What does Ship Agility do exactly?

Post by Final Run »

Is it just a junk stat? Or does it help in a meaningful way in hit calculation or damage reduction with incoming enemy fire? I honestly can't tell in-game, especially as much of the ships have a standard value of 100 anyhow. The only exception in vanilla may be the Defiant class, which is 200. :shock: That one is an anomaly, but may be a contributing factor as to why Heavy escorts are so difficult to hit.

This is all aside from making a vessel appear more maneuverable, though I've boosted agility of command ships anywhere between 200% to 400% in UE and they aren't visibly more agile at all.
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Re: What does Ship Agility do exactly?

Post by Spocks-cuddly-tribble »

I never tested this value. It should influence (among other factors like combat group) the max speed a ship can move per tactical turn in combat. So in Trek terms the max impulse speed? But IIRC only the fast group (default scout and destroyer) can use the full value for some orders (special limitations/modifier codes in trek.exe). Perhaps Tethys can provide more information since he made the ships very fast in GALM tactical combat. :wink:
I don't know how many bugs is too many but that point is reached somewhere before however many in BotF is.
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Re: What does Ship Agility do exactly?

Post by Tethys »

I'd have to say, I don't fully understand the values myself but I have been playing with and adjusting them, so they might work in certain cases?

Though we may have to take into account the scale of ships in GALM. The standard scale was 150% iirc? GALM models are scaled down to about 20-30%. So this might have the "feel" of being faster but in reality, the centerpoint of the model traverses the same distance as the larger models :!:

I do notice, however, when using the "Ram" command, there is a speed boost for most if not all ships. Using "Ram" with a Strike Cruiser and "Assault" with a Cruiser, they will advance at the same pace, maybe the Strike Cruiser a bit faster.

Should also take into account the ship/fleet spread and initial combat distances as well.

I know way back many years ago, using the (now removed for stability reasons) "Evade" command with a high agility fast attack ship would make them fly in many circles like a shuttlecraft might do. Quite amusing, but caused frequent crashing in GALM, so I removed that completely for the time being.
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Re: What does Ship Agility do exactly?

Post by Spocks-cuddly-tribble »

Tethys wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2024 7:20 amI do notice, however, when using the "Ram" command, there is a speed boost for most if not all ships. Using "Ram" with a Strike Cruiser and "Assault" with a Cruiser, they will advance at the same pace, maybe the Strike Cruiser a bit faster.
A valid observation :up: , trek.exe multiplier 1.25 (i.e. +25%) for Ram. Similar to the Black Hole agility effect 1/3.

There is many more modifiers, most of them lower the max agility for certain orders, but I never saw more modifiers for specific combat groups except the retreat agility before going to Warp (all groups except fast 0.2 - 0.3). Other slow groups modifiers might still hide in trek.exe. :???:


Tethys wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2024 7:20 amI know way back many years ago, using the (now removed for stability reasons) "Evade" command with a high agility fast attack ship would make them fly in many circles like a shuttlecraft might do. Quite amusing, but caused frequent crashing in GALM, so I removed that completely for the time being.
A shame, but fixing this requires something like the disable LOD feature fix for vanilla HOBs/textures, which doesn't work for new ship models using multiple textures? viewtopic.php?p=46194#p46194
I don't know how many bugs is too many but that point is reached somewhere before however many in BotF is.
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Re: What does Ship Agility do exactly?

Post by Tethys »

It's not much of a shame. The true shame is that the "Ram" command calculates exactly the hull points vs enemy ship hull points and just subtracts them. That's it right? There is no randomization of number, value, or chance. No success or failure chances. I do think it might be possible to create some kind of math to apply bonus damages in some cases: closer you are to enemy when Ram is first used should = better ram chance or more damages (less chance enemy to evade). Crew experience could probably be modded to have some effect, more experience = better chance, more potential damage (hull points modifier per level above experience level "Green": "Regular" = (ship hp)*1.25 -> "Legendary" (ship hp)*2.0) if Borg, since all their ships do not use the hull, but use shield power as hull for regeneration purposes (regeneration of hull during tactical combat would be neat). So Borg would need a little adjustment to hull stats and a larger modifier to bring effective hull points up to a respectable number for ram events in TC.

If Ram was not so absolute, it would be a lot more fun to use... :)

Oh and GALM update is just released. Say, how hard would it be to add a new galactic shape to BotF? :cool:
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Re: What does Ship Agility do exactly?

Post by Final Run »

Tethys wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2024 6:08 pm It's not much of a shame. The true shame is that the "Ram" command calculates exactly the hull points vs enemy ship hull points and just subtracts them. That's it right? There is no randomization of number, value, or chance. No success or failure chances.
Well I'm not sure if there is true calculation for success but the rams have some inherent randomness that I can not attribute to anything known of. I have fought similar battles ad nauseam in SP, casual matches, tournaments, etc. I have found that ships ramming will sometimes nearly miss inexplicably (yet extremely close if not visually intersecting!) in situations where they normally would connect.

I noticed too that in one "fast attack" versus another in a duel of shorts, that the ram seems unlikely to hit if the opponent merely strafes in the opening round, let alone an evasion command. Whereas a successful group ram into the a strafing enemy formation almost always yields spectacular light show with few survivors.

Edit: I forgot to mention too, there is the variable of damage control reducing effectiveness of ram in the case of weaker (or damaged, if you use a certain ram patch :wink: ) hulled ships hitting superior ones. Group ram seemingly randomizes what vessel run into what, so whether their green crews get hit or their legendary ones is even more variance.
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Re: What does Ship Agility do exactly?

Post by Spocks-cuddly-tribble »

Final Run wrote: Sun Jan 28, 2024 11:28 pmI have found that ships ramming will sometimes nearly miss inexplicably (yet extremely close if not visually intersecting!) in situations where they normally would connect.
Strange setup in BotF. Ships are not solid, so myriads can and will occupy the same space. You can even fire through the own, ally or other enemy shields/hull without any interference. I guess ram just checks for both ships' centerpoint coordinates, since real model shape/dimensions was too intricate. :mad:

And there is many more strange bugs:

- ram issued before ships re-cloak (vanilla disabled unsinished code) can destroy the now cloaked ship by moving to its former/outdated coordinates :shock:
- charge/assault agillity is set to zero if the current target uses evade :dwn: (ram still works)

Final Run wrote: Sun Jan 28, 2024 11:28 pmI noticed too that in one "fast attack" versus another in a duel of shorts, that the ram seems unlikely to hit if the opponent merely strafes in the opening round, let alone an evasion command. Whereas a successful group ram into the a strafing enemy formation almost always yields spectacular light show with few survivors.
I also think initial round evade or strafe works best to avoid ram.
Group ram, I think, works better since it might use wildcard target code (ID -1) so it can select the best/closest target in the dynamic situation each?

In my last ECM SP test game there was no way to survive a battle with 60 Defiants vs about 170 max teched Cardassian ships. Usind AI tactical combat patches, they rammed/destroyed my evading/strafing (and performing fancy mixed commands) Defiants. Best outcome was 1/3 enemy losses.

Final Run wrote: Sun Jan 28, 2024 11:28 pmthere is the variable of damage control reducing effectiveness of ram in the case of weaker (or damaged, if you use a certain ram patch :wink: ) hulled ships hitting superior ones. Group ram seemingly randomizes what vessel run into what, so whether their green crews get hit or their legendary ones is even more variance.
Yes, if a ship survives the impact, the hull damage is reduced by the damage control percentage factor. And since the patch uses the current hull points as hull damage for the opponent, they can be reduced by weapon fire before the impact, which also causes some randomness. :wink:

Vanilla/ECM nominal hull as ram damage remains static. I like this better, the loosing side and major damaged ships still pose some random danger with the sacrifice ram option. With the patch they are toothless, it even encourages to ram them. :sad:
I don't know how many bugs is too many but that point is reached somewhere before however many in BotF is.
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Re: What does Ship Agility do exactly?

Post by Final Run »

Spocks-cuddly-tribble wrote: Mon Jan 29, 2024 12:42 pm Strange setup in BotF. Ships are not solid, so myriads can and will occupy the same space. You can even fire through the own, ally or other enemy shields/hull without any interference. I guess ram just checks for both ships' centerpoint coordinates, since real model shape/dimensions was too intricate. :mad:

And there is many more strange bugs:

- ram issued before ships re-cloak (vanilla disabled unfinished code) can destroy the now cloaked ship by moving to its former/outdated coordinates :shock:
- charge/assault agillity is set to zero if the current target uses evade :dwn: (ram still works)
I figured that much seeing 30+ galors or galaxies stacked on top of each other after trying to group ram and the random target selection doesn't happen. Looks silly as can be but nonetheless ram is a great way to close distance. I was just surprised that seemingly two different (yet identical) ramming situations could go either way. My testimony is mostly anecdotal here but was wondering if anyone noticed the same phenomenon.

About the re-cloak ram, that is incredibly good to know and I'm hoping it could be patched in the theoretical future. Not that re-cloak commands are that useful except in niche situation, like when behind a ship with poor rear-firing ability like vanilla K'vorts (Romulan vs Klingon engagements is the only time I've successfully used it)

Re- cloak would be better if it allowed ship performing it to have shields up and/or shoot back. At bare minimum, it could get a big defensive boost to 'dodge' more fire. This is probably going to be included in my future mod update if I could figure out a way, but unfortunately did not make it in time for the 2023 botf tournament (not a huge loss and there is bigger fish for me to fry for this game, but I'm still a little sad about it :roll: ).
In my last ECM SP test game there was no way to survive a battle with 60 Defiants vs about 170 max teched Cardassian ships. Using AI tactical combat patches, they rammed/destroyed my evading/strafing (and performing fancy mixed commands) Defiants. Best outcome was 1/3 enemy losses.
Not surprised at all with that. The Defiants that avoid collision will inevitably die to phasers, ram seems to increase the chance of hitting and reduces the
distance gap that otherwise lowers damage. For most of the highest tech command ships it is should be an easy win.

https://youtu.be/4E6psoWFa2A?si=3mTU3BgK_nqHC7LR
This is a recent game of my Defiants dying to charging Vorcha's in two rounds. Ouch. :shock:
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Re: What does Ship Agility do exactly?

Post by Spocks-cuddly-tribble »

Final Run wrote: Wed Jan 31, 2024 2:04 pmAbout the re-cloak ram, that is incredibly good to know and I'm hoping it could be patched in the theoretical future.
Fixing the re-cloak ram glitch is beyond my ambitions.

Plus there is still that torpedo glitch where you can easily destroy cloaked ships by targeting an uncloaked ship in the same combat group. MP veterans wouldn't make the mistake to mix cloaked and uncloaked ships in the same sub-group. But the Klingon AI has that habit, so playing as Romulan in epic games, you can destroy their B'rel and K'Vort ships with shields down. :sad:

Final Run wrote: Wed Jan 31, 2024 2:04 pmRe- cloak would be better if it allowed ship performing it to have shields up and/or shoot back. At bare minimum, it could get a big defensive boost to 'dodge' more fire.
Unlocking shields and/or weapons during re-cloak should be easy, IIRC (ECM has this special patch for the combat drone only).
For player ships I would still disable weapons OR shields, otherwise re-cloak can become unfair OP.

Final Run wrote: Wed Jan 31, 2024 2:04 pmNot surprised at all with that. The Defiants that avoid collision will inevitably die to phasers, ram seems to increase the chance of hitting and reduces the
distance gap that otherwise lowers damage. For most of the highest tech command ships it is should be an easy win.
MP yes, no question. But vs the vanilla AI it's an easy win, so I'm glad my patches improve the AI (a bit).

I think with an extra task force of nine Sovereign 2 one could cheese that battle (vs the ECM AI) exploiting the new aft torpedo launchers.

Superior AI fleets will prioritise the most expensive enemy target (i.e. the Sovereign 2). Setting them to initial round 'circle' often lets them fly in the opposite direction of the enemy fleet, who will still catch most of the aft torpedoes.

So your own losses are one the lower side, plus your Defiants can unopposed go for max damage attacks. Note the ECM Defiants have only forward/narrow phaser arcs, so they can perform weaker than expected from vanilla. Plus enemy cruiser can now hit them with new extra torpedo arcs.
I don't know how many bugs is too many but that point is reached somewhere before however many in BotF is.
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Re: What does Ship Agility do exactly?

Post by Final Run »

Spocks-cuddly-tribble wrote: Wed Jan 31, 2024 3:38 pm
Final Run wrote: Wed Jan 31, 2024 2:04 pmAbout the re-cloak ram, that is incredibly good to know and I'm hoping it could be patched in the theoretical future.
Fixing the re-cloak ram glitch is beyond my ambitions.
It's not that big of a deal, but it's always nice to stay hopeful :grin:
Plus there is still that torpedo glitch where you can easily destroy cloaked ships by targeting an uncloaked ship in the same combat group. MP veterans wouldn't make the mistake to mix cloaked and uncloaked ships in the same sub-group. But the Klingon AI has that habit, so playing as Romulan in epic games, you can destroy their B'rel and K'Vort ships with shields down. :sad:
Seen the torpedo glitch first hand, but if most of the enemy is too close at least they won't fire the torpedoes? Seems at close range it all just defaults to phasers unless there are vessels lagging behind the main force due to evade/circle commands.

Weapons and shield for re-cloak definitely probably too powerful in most cases, I have to agree. I was leaning towards shields only + the evade defensive bonus if it's not there already.

I think with an extra task force of nine Sovereign 2 one could cheese that battle (vs the ECM AI) exploiting the new aft torpedo launchers.
Torpedo rear-firing seems like it would be rather powerful in BOTF, though I've never tried that option yet. How many ships have this ability in ECM besides Sovereigns?

Feel like this alone *might* balance out Klingon vs Federation in ultra-late game in-particular. Romulans and Ferengi on the other hand probably don't care about the enemy Feds keeping distance due to already being torpedo (long-range) focused.
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Re: What does Ship Agility do exactly?

Post by Spocks-cuddly-tribble »

Final Run wrote: Wed Jan 31, 2024 4:16 pmbut if most of the enemy is too close at least they won't fire the torpedoes? Seems at close range it all just defaults to phasers unless there are vessels lagging behind the main force due to evade/circle commands.
Yes, there is a torpedo min range for each ship and other targeting shenanigans preventing max efficiency.
Mostly 'circle' works best for torpedoing the cloaked ships in the target group (from tests with vanilla default arcs).

Final Run wrote: Wed Jan 31, 2024 4:16 pmTorpedo rear-firing seems like it would be rather powerful in BOTF, though I've never tried that option yet. How many ships have this ability in ECM besides Sovereigns?
Sovereign 2 is the only Fed ship more expensive than the Defiant (prerequisite for this AI exploit - the rear torpedoes exploit is a second bonus on top).

Vanilla default is 60 degree forward torpedo arc all ships, stations and monster. ECM adds:

- all Strike cruiser & Stations 360 degree torpedo arc (all directions) + some monsters? (I don't recall right now)
- all other cruiser (except K'vort) extra 45 degree aft (so you can't 'camp' behind AI cruisers anymore)
- fast attack got no extra rear launchers since, IMHO, they have other advanges in BotF

Final Run wrote: Wed Jan 31, 2024 4:16 pmFeel like this alone *might* balance out Klingon vs Federation in ultra-late game in-particular. Romulans and Ferengi on the other hand probably don't care about the enemy Feds keeping distance due to already being torpedo (long-range) focused.
Yes, given vanilla game stats, Galaxy-X II and Sovereign II vs powerful Klingon fleets, benefited most from above 'circle' rear torpedo tactic in ECM tests.
I don't know how many bugs is too many but that point is reached somewhere before however many in BotF is.
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Re: What does Ship Agility do exactly?

Post by Final Run »

Vanilla default is 60 degree forward torpedo arc all ships, stations and monster. ECM adds:

- all Strike cruiser & Stations 360 degree torpedo arc (all directions) + some monsters? (I don't recall right now)
- all other cruiser (except K'vort) extra 45 degree aft (so you can't 'camp' behind AI cruisers anymore)
- fast attack got no extra rear launchers since, IMHO, they have other advanges in BotF
Honestly this seems way more interesting than having every ship having identical torpedo arcs. The beam weapons never were so... :grin:

Yes, given vanilla game stats, Galaxy-X II and Sovereign II vs powerful Klingon fleets, benefited most from above 'circle' rear torpedo tactic in ECM tests
That's sounds nice. Might be time for me to fire up ECM again sometime, it's been awhile.
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Re: What does Ship Agility do exactly?

Post by Final Run »

Spocks-cuddly-tribble wrote: Wed Jan 31, 2024 3:38 pmUnlocking shields and/or weapons during re-cloak should be easy, IIRC (ECM has this special patch for the combat drone only). For player ships I would still disable weapons OR shields, otherwise re-cloak can become unfair OP.
I wanted to note my ongoing interest if it is indeed an easy code intervention, for testing in vanilla and beyond :!:

I think disabling weapons would be a good trade-away, while not being too OP (but who knows).
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Re: What does Ship Agility do exactly?

Post by Spocks-cuddly-tribble »

Final Run wrote: Tue Apr 02, 2024 9:08 pmduring re-cloak (...) disabling weapons would be a good trade-away, while not being too OP (but who knows).
order -> Cloak

0056A2B5         call    tcinfo_ship_plus_1B4_ship_48order
0056A2BA         or      byte ptr [eax+58h], 10h           ; lock weapons
0056A2BE         mov     eax, edx
0056A2C0         call    ship_add_328h_monster_2D0h_10h_hull
0056A2C5         mov     bh, [eax+68h]
0056A2C8         mov     ecx, [esp+14h]
0056A2CC         or      bh, 2                             ; lock shields -> remove
0056A2CF         push    ecx
0056A2D0         mov     [eax+68h], bh
0056A2D3         mov     ebx, [esp+14h]
0056A2D7         push    ebx
0056A2D8         mov     eax, edx
0056A2DA         call    Evade__speed
Try this:

Code: Select all

trek.exe at 0x1696CC change 80 CF 02 -> 90 90 90
No shields with weapons still active would be: trek.exe at 0x1696BA change 80 48 58 10 -> 90 90 90 90

Note; conflicts with: 'Special monster cloak command (unlock shields & weapons) for combat drone': viewtopic.php?p=29642#p29642 @ 3.b

Your variant for no weapons would be:
Trek.exe at 0x1696B5
replace: (30 bytes)
E8 A6 E8 FB FF 80 48 58 10 89 D0 E8 DB E8 FB FF 8A 78 68 8B 4C 24 14 80 CF 02 51 88 78 68
with:
80 B8 78 01 00 00 07 74 0E 80 88 0C 02 00 00 10 90 90 90 90 90 90 90 8B 4C 24 14 51 90 90


0056A2B5   80B8 78010000 07   CMP BYTE [EAX+178], 7 // if a monster...
0056A2BC   74 0E              JE SHORT 56A2CC // ...do not lock weapons & shields
0056A2BE   8088 0C020000 10   OR BYTE [EAX+20C], 10  // lock weapons
0056A2C5   8088 90030000 02   OR BYTE [EAX+390], 2  // lock shields (ships) -> remove
0056A2CC   8B4C24 14          MOV ECX, [ESP+14]
0056A2D0   51                 PUSH ECX
0056A2D1   9090               NOP

Also I updated the credits building bonus patch I made for you with an energy check (to be released soon with the new '+ ship support' bonus). :wink:
I don't know how many bugs is too many but that point is reached somewhere before however many in BotF is.
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Re: What does Ship Agility do exactly?

Post by Final Run »

Thank you thank you thank you.

Before this I only managed to use cloak successfully with Romulan Destroyers agaisnt a ship with poor rear-firing (k'vort...)
In all other tests my ships just explode even use of certian commands to get away from the enemy. In vanilla Romulans are already a glass cannon *with* shields :mad:
Spocks-cuddly-tribble wrote: Wed Apr 03, 2024 2:24 pm Also I updated the credits building bonus patch I made for you with an energy check (to be released soon with the new '+ ship support' bonus). :wink:
Ship support bonus :?: :!:
My curiosity could not be more piqued.
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