INTRODUCING: Rebirth of the Federation

Rebirth of the Federation; support/discussion/questions

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INTRODUCING: Rebirth of the Federation

Post by Dafedz »

Greetings, I am Dafedz. I’ve been hanging around here for many a long year. Since virtually the beginning. You may know me from the Ultimate Mod series – the latest iteration being Ultimate Mod 5.5, available here [viewforum.php?f=29], and bundled in the BOTF Installer [viewtopic.php?t=3509].
I’ve been working on something else since the last UM release. In fact, Ultimate Mod has probably reached its final form. My energies have been focused on this new project, and it’s not a mod.

Way back when (circa 2001), I was involved with the first fan-made BOTF sequel attempt: Universal Evolution. That dissolved before it amounted to very much. Various other projects came along. None got off the ground until 'BOTF 2' under Mike Strobel, which ultimately became Supremacy. I was also involved with that in the beginning. I accumulated a large database of material that became the game’s structural and architectural blueprint, containing hundreds of files, images, lists, charts, tables, voice scripts and so on. Mike eventually dropped out. The game took a different direction. I wished Supremacy all the best and went my own way. For many years, that database sat gathering dust on my hard drive.

Until the beginning of this year. I decided to tackle what I didn’t have the nerve – or the time – to tackle before. Make a sequel to BOTF the way I always envisioned it, and using my old blueprint.

I’m calling it Rebirth of the Federation.

I believe that BoTE once went by that name, but it's fair use now and I’m sticking with it.

"Rebirth" here implies a certain context:

a renaissance; a revival
a second or new birth; reincarnation


That's exactly what this new game is. A spiritual successor to the original.

This is a "Unity 6 URP" project written in C#. Coding not being my strong suit it’s being assisted by Claude – which is just a tool, same as Unity, the engine I'm using, is just a tool. An invaluable tool to be sure. But the game is my own. My own design, my own creation. This is not 'just another BOTF clone'. It aims to look, feel, and play like BOTF, sure, but with lots of new features, and I think, improvements, including (I hope) things never seen before.

I’m still in the development phase, so there is no demo to try just yet. This will probably launch initially as an Alpha to a group of volunteer testers. 3D ship combat will ship with that Alpha. I’m aiming for end ’26, early ’27 for that release.

The design, structure, and current state of the game:

Galaxy & Map
• Square-based tilemap for the galaxy grid, with full pan/zoom navigation (in 4 zoom steps)
• Supports up to twelve planets per system, and eleven planet classes in five sizes (excluding Gas Giants)
• Three map sizes: Large (64x32), Medium (44x22), Small (32×16)
• Various map configuration options, including starting spawn location (choose from six quadrants) for your chosen empire, or randomize, and custom seeds for reproducible/shareable maps
• Fog of War system that mirrors BOTF, plus neutral zones / contested territory
• Right-click context menu fully interactive (art-asset borrowed from UDM with Thunder’s permission)
• Each map spawns special star systems called Bounty Systems, which contain high max populations and abundant resources. They are rare - spawning once in fifty systems. AI will war over these (and so will you).

• A dynamic game-resource library entailing multiple types. Resources are used for ship building. In BOTF, ship production was limited to how many Dilithium sources you had. To build four ships in four systems simultaneously you required +4 Dilithium empire wide. In ROTF, Dilithium Refineries, built in systems where Dilithium is present, now return 1 Dilithium per turn to an accumulating Empire Stockpile. Further ship-building resources include Deuterium, Titanium, Tritanium, Duranium and Duratanium (all Trek canon materials), the latter being required for advanced, late game ship types. Amount required per ship build scales with Tech (e.g. a Cruiser IV requires more materials than a Cruiser I)

• Astronomical anomalies in place – not yet fully functional though. They include black holes, pulsars, nebulas, spatial distortions, omega-particle clouds etc (there are many more than BOTF). Anomaly objects (when system complete) will have a distinct purpose beyond casting passive damage. In BOTF, you had science vessels performing map exploration. A new ship-type: SCOUTS perform this task in ROTF. Science Vessels are distinctly separate. You deploy them to investigate these procedurally generated anomalies. Some objects are static (e.g. black holes), others appear/disappear and can move around. Arrive in a sector with an anomaly. Select ‘Scan’ from the Ship orders menu to scan it. The scan can take multiple turns. Duration is based on the complexity and rarity of the object type. Objects types also scale with your Tech progression (the more basic objects appear earlier in the game). Once the Scan is complete, earn Research Points from the gathered data. Rarer objects return more points. Objects of the same type can only be scanned once. Any ship type can Scan an anomaly, but ‘Scan Strength' is controlled by a modifier. Anomaly scanning works best with Science Vessels (specialist) and Command ships. Using other ship-types (Strike Cruisers, Destroyers, etc) to Scan objects will return fewer research points.

Large Map (64x32) with FogOfWar turned off
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Right-click pie wheel
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Colony & Empire Management
• Full player-facing Colony Screen layout (as per BOTF) with dynamic scrollable Ship List. (Left panel in screenshot below) has interactive menu with shuffle filters. Sort by System name (A to Z), Morale (high/low), Shipyard (present/absent), and Industry (high/low).
• Tooltip readouts for colony resources: morale, credits, food, industry, energy, research, and intelligence output.
• Each colony has two separate, independently-managed build queues for structures and for ships (for the Ship Build Queue a shipyard must be present and powered)
• Structure system as per BOTF with tiered upgrade chains, unlocked by tech progression, and "One Per System" special structures (Trade Centers, Shipyards, and other unique empire buildings) with their own bonus effects
• Dynamic population growth and decline based on food output, morale, and empire-specific growth rates. Further, Growth Rate can now be manipulated/boosted with certain special structures (but only on certain planet types)
• Morale system with tiered thresholds, containing a full library of empire-wide morale event definitions (colonization, combat, diplomacy, disasters – (partially complete as Diplomacy system still in development)
• Colonization and terraforming flow via dedicated Colony Ships, including planet habitability and terraform-cost calculations
• Outpost/Starbase station system - stations built by Transport ships over multiple turns

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Tech & Research
• Nine-field Tech Tree (Biotech, Computers, Construction, Energy, Propulsion, Weapons, Sociology, Economics, Planetary Science), each with its own images, descriptions, levelling thresholds and research-point accumulation
• Research screen with allocation sliders in each field, works same as BOTF
• Structure and ship unlocks gated by tech-field requirements, integrated with Structure/Ship database. Includes interactable 3D Ship viewer.

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Ships & Fleet
• Taskforce-based fleet management as per BOTF. Unified orders system (Attack, Engage, Colonize, Build Outpost, Terraform, Scrap, etc.) via orders panel that dynamically caters to relevant ship type (e.g. Transports don’t see ‘Terraform’).
• Taskforce size capped at 24 ships
• Ship movement via pathfinding with a visual route/movement-order system (currently bugged on Large map, working on it)
• Taskforce Info Panel, where you can inspect the breakdown of a selected Taskforce’s strength
• Federation have 32 Ship models in game. Rendering smoothly in the Ship Viewer (Tech screen). Outpost and Starbase models also added. The Taskforce Context panel renders a 3D preview of any station that is clicked: Cardassian, Klingon, and Romulan (as well as Federation - your own). Outposts and Starbases are the only AI Empire models in game currently.
• Flagship creation and designation. Flagship status grants the chosen ship with bonuses in several tactical areas. A further bonus is applied taskforce-wide when your Flagship is a member of a taskforce. Certain ship-types make better flagships than others, so choose wisely! Flagship losses also incur morale penalties.
• Full ship roster with per-ship state: hull, shields, crew XP, scan power, current orders, and station-specific fields (station number, pending scrap). Viewable/trackable on a dedicated Ship Info Screen (not built yet) – every ship you’ve ever built, where they’re located, what they’re doing, every stat and particular, it also lists lost ships (and how and where they were lost).

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Diplomacy (Work in progress)
• First Contact / awareness system in place. Empires you haven’t met render as "Unknown" until contact is made. Race-specific portraits, dialogue boxes and voice lines complete. For now, this only supports Empires, not Minor races.
• Minor Races total 72. There are two types of Minor Races. Minor Race Type A (20), and Minor Race Type B (52). Type A’s are the more valuable type (e.g. Vulcans, Bajorans, Ferengi, Breen etc), they often have ships (1-3), powerful structures (2-5 kinds) and strong system bonuses. Type B’s are more common and less powerful (Baku, Chalnoth, Ktarians etc), they may have at most 1 ship type (or no ships), and sometimes only 1 special structure.

• Befriending a Minor Race will not be achieved by simply throwing bribes at it, but by Trade Treaties. This replaces the old Friendship → Affiliation → Membership proposal system from BOTF -- and Trade Routes, in a single stroke. Trade Routes are now "Trade Treaties", and they are set on the Diplomacy panel. Different Trade Treaties net different results. Different items you choose to trade with also have different results. When you propose a Trade Agreement to a Minor, you’re presented with a dropdown list of items - resources from your empire stockpile (Dilithium, Titanium, etc), Food (from empire surplus), and Research Tech arranged by field. These you can offer to Minor Races to increase their sympathy rating towards you. When you offer Research, points are deducted from your GRP pool. Success-rate is determined by the value/desirability of the offered goods. The best choice of wares to offer a Minor Race can be inferred by the Race type and the Race description/stats. Their planetary system itself could hold a clue (example: do they have ships? If yes, do they have dilithium in their system? If you no, do you have dilithium in your stockpile to spare? How grateful will they be if you stock them with dilithium for twenty turns?) It will require you to think, plan, and strategize. This is the general diplomacy system for ROTF, and it’s still being fleshed out. Eventually it will support an active, live, and completely dynamic galaxy-wide Economy system.

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The AI
• This may be controversial: ROTF has four Empires only. Federation, Cardassians, Klingons, and Romulans. Dominion and Ferengi are omitted (Ferengi still feature, but as a Minor). This was an early design choice: confine game to the Alpha/Beta Quadrants. It was also in my mind that building a game around four empires was clearly easier to accomplish than five.
• For now and for quite some time moving forward the only playable Empire is the Federation. Cardassians, Klingons, and Romulans will be playable by the time the Beta comes along.
• AI colony management is in place. Dynamic structure-build prioritization adapts to colony size, role (Industrial/Balanced/Research/Intel), and Ship Production quotas.
• AI expansion logic in place. Colony ships, scouts, and transports each running independent turn-by-turn decision loops for exploration, settlement, and station placement
• AI station building and upgrading. Supports detection of rival territory for strategic station location
• AI economy fully modeled - credits, morale, and resource stockpiles (Dilithium, Deuterium, Titanium, Tritanium, Duranium, Duratanium) simulated per empire, using the same core formulas as the player's own economy
• Adjustable game Difficulty on game config screen. This setting scales AI build costs, industry requirements, resource generation and more.

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Save/Load
• Full game state serialization to JSON.
• Saving a game works differently to BOTF. To save a game in BOTF, you exited the game and entered the Save Screen. There, you clicked an empty slot to save the game. In ROTF, you simply right-click the main galaxy screen to call the pie wheel context menu. Click the center of the wheel and the Save Game dialogue box opens. Several fields are already included in the save name but you can over-write with your own description. Loading a game happens on the Load Screen (similar to BOTF). Each entry slot has an icon that when clicked calls a stats panel. The panel contains a metadata preview of that save game (turn number, credits, colony/ship counts, galaxy settings etc. )

Game Config Screen
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Empire Select (only Federation playable for now)
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Save a game
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Load a game - with game stats preview
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UI/Sound
• The UI is vaguely neutral on purpose (having gentle reminders of BOTF/LCARS). I designed it this way to make it easily reconfigurable for the other Empires when the time comes. In other words, I would simply recolour it rather than creating 3 new UIs from scratch.
• Game has no music yet. Unsure how to proceed on creating that music (i'm not a musician) beyond using AI tools, but I haven't investigated this yet. I may just re-use the legacy BOTF soundtrack. I have however created an original voice track (with AI) for various game events. The voices are spectacular (the Klingons are hilarious). That list of game events continues to grow.

Latest update / what I’ve been working on lately.

I've overcome many bugs and problems and design hurdles, but many more remain. Specifically with regards to the AI, which has proven very challenging. But I have recently completed:

AI expansion system, built as a static class (no bootstrap), all structures and ship build decisions are fully dynamic.

AI Ships
Fleet targets per agenda, per Empire (different for each empire personality). There are Six agenda phases:
Expansion → default from turn 1
Consolidation → owned systems >= 6 and no immediate military threat
Cold War → any rival empire military strength equal of ours
Defensive War → at war, any rival empire military strength > 130% of ours
Offensive War → at war, any rival empire military strength < 90% of ours
No Hope → at war, on the ropes, any rival empire military strength > 200% of ours

In very basic terms when a ship queue slot opens:
1. Evaluate current agenda
2. For each ship category in priority order:
- Count existing ships of that category (owned + under construction)
- Compare against fleet target for current agenda
- If below target AND tech unlocked AND can afford materials → queue it
3. If nothing needed → idle (no ship queued)
Priority order within Expansion agenda:
Colony Ship > Scout > Transport > Science > Destroyer
Priority order within War agenda:
Cruiser > Destroyer > Capital > Transport > Scout
Utility ships are need-driven regardless of agenda. Warships just escalate in tier as agenda escalates.

Shipyard Improvements:
Dynamic structure upgrading, including shipyards to accommodate superior ship types, i.e. for Klingons: Basic Shipyard (all Empires share this structure at Tech 0) →to Imperial Shipyard Mk I →Imperial Shipyard Mk II. etc). First upgrade fires when colony has 50 energy surplus // Ensures system extraction structures are in place (e.g Deuterium Plant, Dilithium Refinery etc, are queued/built as soon as available, and fully powered). All ship builds also correctly deduct materials from Empire stockpile. AI follows and obeys upgrade chain. Added Guard prevents AI from building obsolete ships/structures.

Empire AI fully wired with:
colony data, worker/labour assignment (by priority), energy consuming structures, build queue, growth, Trade Goods (default structure), and dynamic decision-making as pertains to colony function, based on colony properties. This includes system resources/bonuses (if present). AI makes intelligent use of these. Decision making also accommodates colonization behaviour -- valuable systems (e.g Bounty Systems) are colonized as a priority. A 'priority' system also includes key location (strategic); if it meets population ceiling (300+) = designate as ship-building system. War-footing scenarios are considered (AI agenda-phase is tied to relationships with other empires), plus many more.

Stations (Player and AI):
Each Empire has six station types. System is similar to BOTF: built with Transports. Upgrade chain: Outpost I → II → III → Starbase I → II → III.
• Each completed station claims sector + 8 surrounding sectors for owning empire
• Acts as ship range extension
• Combat capable with offence/defence stats
• Map icons added for all empires
• Icons added to TaskForce View panel when sector selected (that contains a station)
• Selected Station displays in TaskForce context panel (covers planet strip) when selected. Rotating 3D model added to Station preview + upgrade requirements, tactical stats, and scrap function.

Ignore Scrap/Upgrade dialogue for an AI station (bug) - this should be player-facing only
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Sensor system completed
• uses additive stacking (mirrors BOTF, using sensor strength from structures and ships), real-time sector mouse-hover readout in Red/Yellow/Green at top of UI, clears on mouse leave // runs twice per turn (before AI decisions, after movement). A couple of bugs remain that need ironing out.

AI Research system completed
• Compound 10% free RP bonus added to mirror player
• correctly advances tech fields
• Worker assignment fills research structures first during early phases - although that's the goal. Unfortunately, this is still bugged, I haven't tracked the source just yet - AI food/factory preference is still too strongly weighted. This has been extremely difficult to get right, I've gone through multiple iterations. I started with a pre-authored bootstrap sequence to control colony expansion/base structures, but this proved impossible to balance because every star system is different - different bonuses, different planet types, and most of all, different populations. It also had to weigh food/energy deficit protection; these needed their own routines. In the end,I created such a code spaghetti nightmare that I had to abandon the whole system and start again with a tier system:

Tier 1: Survival (energy/food deficit)
Tier 2: Core Needs (food/industry)
Tier 3: Upgrades (catch-all for ALL upgrade chains including shipyard)
Tier 4: New Colony Shipyard (if pop criteria met)
Tier 5: Resource Extraction (Dilithium Refinery, Titanium Mine, Deuterium Plant - intially)
Tier 6: Strategic overflow (research/intel)
Tier 7: Mature/specialist
It is working much better now, but it's still pretty sketchy. Example: system has high food bonus, so colony has excess food, but AI overmans the farms anyway due to food deficit over-sensitivity, producing shortages elsewhere. In other cases, it will produce an absolute power house system, with huge industry due to large resources and high population -- and complete duds at the same time due to low populations; it doesn't know what to do with these, and often these systems starve. I'm working on it!

Fog of War
I went through three different systems to represent fog of war. I started with procedural animated fog that shifts across the screen. I got it working correctly, but couldn't get it looking good.

Attempt 1
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Attempt 2
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In the end, I switched to the BOTF system of using a second tilemap with its own texture layered on top of the galaxy map. I discovered limitations with this system too, which does stifle image quality at higher zoom levels, but I decided to live with it.

Created First Contact pathing. When Empire ships encounter each other on the map they now become aware of each other. This is the very first slice of the burgeoning Diplomacy system. Contact state is tracked by a persistent per-empire boolean condition. "Unknown Ship" and "Unknown Station" code and icons have also been added for pre-contact map interactions.
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AI agenda phases begin after contact is made. Dynamic building choices also fire via frontier detection, e.g. an Empire may build a station on the edge of a rival's territory as a strategic defence asset. Respecting rival sector claims is half done (no building a station in another empire's territory).

I've just recently added Neutral Zones (contested sectors) to this flow. It's currently bugged, see screenshot of a Federation station successfully built in a neutral zone. Again, I'm working on it!
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------

In summary, this is a genuine new Birth of the Federation game I'm developing, and most of the core structure is done. Progress continues at a steady pace. It's still pre-release (and by several months) but when the time comes, I’ll need some testers. I could also use the 3D modellers – and texture creators. Apply here if this is in your skillset.

All comments and feedback welcome.

Thanks for reading!
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Re: INTRODUCING: Rebirth of the Federation

Post by Axis »

Now, this is more like it. :up:
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Re: INTRODUCING: Rebirth of the Federation

Post by cleverwise »

Well that is beyond awesome!

You have my deepest respects as that is not easy. For starters your mod is my favorite. Anyway what you are doing is not easy.

You had so much information and I won't comment on all of it, however a few items I thought I would touch base on:

1) Despite the naysayers AI is, as you said, a great tool. Perfect? No. Always right? No. But still it is right more than wrong and it is super useful. Those that are totally dismissive of it are stuck in the past. That does not mean AI can solve every issue but nor is smart to ignore the technology. Thus congrats on using it smartly to solve your issues.

I personally have found ChatGPT and Gemini more useful than Grok and Claude but that is besides the point for this project. I know many are using Claude for coding and cowork.

Some view all this AI as Terminator or Matrix in the making I take the POV of we shall see. Humanity likes to rush to the worst conclusion. I am hoping it will be more like Data and Star Trek where AI was more helpful. The truth will probably be in the middle.

2) For music I would suggest AI. You can easily make up easy listening Star Trek/Sci Fi like music with zero copyright issues. That is the key. If you reuse BotF's music you may hit copyright issues. Granted that even using the code is an issue but for example on Youtube it is the soundtracks that often get hit with copyright strikes over the video (not that it doesn't happen with video too). Still if it were my project I would just generate your own via AI and not think about it anymore.

3) All of us can come up with flaws in the original game. Still here is one that maybe you can address and maybe not. I always thought it was a bit of a cheat to know of another power through immediate contact with a minor.

So you meet the Vulcans then see oh they know the Klingons. Thus the Klingons must be in the area. Why? It is like an away team beams down or meets a starship and that group tells all? It seems to me that you shouldn't know that unless you become friends. Then fine that is more realistic. Do you talk about all the people you know to a new person? No.

4) I agree with your major powers. I never understood why the Ferengi where on par with the Federation and such. That made no real sense to me. I know if you watch all of TNG they kind of get that point across but not really. So I, for one, am clapping for your choice of demoting them.
Last edited by cleverwise on Mon Aug 03, 2026 3:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: INTRODUCING: Rebirth of the Federation

Post by trevtones »

This looks interesting. I shall be following this project to see how it develops!

A lot of information there. The one thing that really jumped out at me was only having 4 playable races. One could make the argument that races like breen or tholians couldve been a major power in alpha-beta quadrants as well but I understand that 4 seems to be an easy number to work with and there are the big 4 powers that we are used to from the show. Looking at it from a multiplayer perspective it's always been very rare to get 5 people playing original botf but having 4 players is much more common as well.

I will be excited to see a playable demo for this someday!
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Re: INTRODUCING: Rebirth of the Federation

Post by Dafedz »

cleverwise wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2026 9:05 am 2) For music I would suggest AI.
Yes, that probably will be the route that I take, but it won't be for a while -- it's kind of low on the list priorities at the moment.
cleverwise wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2026 9:05 am 3) All of us can come up with flaws in the original game. Still here is one that maybe you can address and maybe not. I always thought it was a bit of a cheat to know of another power through immediate contact with a minor.

So you meet the Vulcans then see oh they know the Klingons. Thus the Klingons must be in the area. Why? It is like an away team beams down or meets a starship and that group tells all? It seems to me that you shouldn't know that unless you become friends. Then fine that is more realistic. Do you talk about all the people you know to a new person? No.
You mean the minor races listed on the Summary Panel > Relationship tab. That's a good point, and I will keep that in mind. It's worth considering changing how this works.
trevtones wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2026 2:26 pm One could make the argument that races like breen or tholians couldve been a major power in alpha-beta quadrants as well but I understand that 4 seems to be an easy number to work with and there are the big 4 powers that we are used to from the show.
I won't argue with that. There are multiple major Minor Races that might qualify as an 'Empire'. The real issue is this: they were never strongly developed on screen. The Cardassians themselves were just occasional villains of the week type aliens until DS9 expanded upon them greatly.

We don't know enough cultural information about even the Breen (which were given extensive coverage in the Dominion war), to give them an Empire slot. And they only have one known ship design. Yes, we don't have many canon Cardassian/Romulan (or Ferengi) ship designs either, but we did learn a lot about those races over the course of TNG/DS9/VGR: their personalities, cultures, homeworlds, the various buildings/institutions they had that we could easily incorporate into the structure list, and this more than compensated. If there was a another major Alpha/Beta quadrant race that did qualify for a slot, that we knew a great deal about, I'd certainly consider it!
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Re: INTRODUCING: Rebirth of the Federation

Post by thunderchero »

Dafedz wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2026 11:13 am There are multiple major Minor Races that might qualify as an 'Empire'.
Do something that has been requested many times "non playable minor empires" limit max possible system/ships held? each minor could have different limit or none.
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Re: INTRODUCING: Rebirth of the Federation

Post by Dafedz »

Do you mean: expandable Minors, Thunder?

It's already crossed my mind, but I deferred this idea until much further down the road. It actually wouldn't be too hard to implement, say, give certain Type A Minor Races (e.g. Vulcans) the ability to colonise and claim 1-3 nearby systems, which they'd own as part of a mini empire. Of course, for any Minor race able to do this they would have to have their own colony ships - unless you allow them to cheese it somehow (also possible).
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Re: INTRODUCING: Rebirth of the Federation

Post by cleverwise »

Dafedz wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2026 11:13 am Yes, that probably will be the route that I take, but it won't be for a while -- it's kind of low on the list priorities at the moment.
That makes sense. Music makes playing a bit more enjoyable but people can play a MP3 or something using background software.
Dafedz wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2026 11:13 am You mean the minor races listed on the Summary Panel > Relationship tab. That's a good point, and I will keep that in mind. It's worth considering changing how this works.
Correct. Again I always thought that was a bit to revealing. I get it does not always mean another major is nearby because minors can build ships and travel around and thus meet other powers away from their home system. Still more often than not it is telling. Thus hiding that information makes the game playing a bit more mysterious and difficult. I am not sure how possible this idea is given the code access you have but I did want to throw it out there for possible consideration.
trevtones wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2026 2:26 pm We don't know enough cultural information about even the Breen (which were given extensive coverage in the Dominion war), to give them an Empire slot. And they only have one known ship design.
I wanted to use this an opening to discuss minor majors. I think that is a fair way to look at it. Some minors are clearly more aggressive or advanced than others.

However if we look at Trek canon up to and including the series Enterprise no other major Alpha quadrant powers were mentioned. Sure, again, some minors like the Ferengi wandered quite a bit but still over all they were no match for Starfleet. DS9 points to this hard with the Dominion war. The Federation really wanted the Romulans to join the Federation/Klingon alliance. There is that whole show where Captain Sisko is trying to maneuver them to join. Of course it fails until the bomb.

Still if there were any other empires as equal you would have heard the Federation needs to talk x, y, z into joining as it could flip the balance of power. But nope. None were mentioned. Also if you recall the TNG multi-part about the secret weapon all four major powers had to come together to decode it. Again not 20 powers, not 5, not 10. Four.

Of course one can always argue alternative timelines, which Trek did often, or temporal wars, which Trek did or even other quadrant powers from Delta or whatever entering Alpha. But if we look at the original ideas from the 1960's thru 2005 there were no other major powers in the Alpha.

I do think if a player was on a bigger map then more minor empires make sense. For example the Andorians and Vulcans did, in Enterprise, have some off system colonies. Thus nothing has to be static that's for sure.

The game Horizon, which is a great companion to BotF, has far more species and even allows for planet by planet colonization causing mixed systems which happened too in Trek.

Back to a possible function would be continued research. In many games, including BotF, once you get to Level 10 that is that. However what would be interesting is some kind of bonus. So no need to keep unlocking new units but say keeping research in construction provides a bonus. This way empires, at least human, don't just abandon research so quickly. It would need to be some kind of bonus that is worth it yet not to over the top. Still many structures give Empire wide bonuses so I could see 25%, 50%, or even 100% increase to construction, intel, food, etc if research is left.

Another feature that would be interesting is not so fixed population caps. It doesn't make sense to have them locked. So Sol starts with 315 but over time as tech advances it would see a higher population cap. At level 10 why is it still 315? I mean these are advanced technology societies. Clearly with food replicators and such food isn't an issue. Clearly with better tech building new structures for housing people isn't an issue. It never made sense that the cap was locked forever (in the game session). So provides with each over tech level a bump up in max population occurs (or something).

I have no idea if you can adjust the AI but the way it makes a treaty, breaks it a few plays later, then asks again for the same treaty, breaks it, and around it goes is ultra annoying and always has been. I just start ignoring them.

I am not sure if those are doable given what coding you can access but food for thought anyway. I have dozens of them for sure.
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Re: INTRODUCING: Rebirth of the Federation

Post by trevtones »

cleverwise wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2026 11:09 pm However if we look at Trek canon up to and including the series Enterprise no other major Alpha quadrant powers were mentioned. Sure, again, some minors like the Ferengi wandered quite a bit but still over all they were no match for Starfleet. DS9 points to this hard with the Dominion war. The Federation really wanted the Romulans to join the Federation/Klingon alliance. There is that whole show where Captain Sisko is trying to maneuver them to join. Of course it fails until the bomb.

Still if there were any other empires as equal you would have heard the Federation needs to talk x, y, z into joining as it could flip the balance of power. But nope. None were mentioned. Also if you recall the TNG multi-part about the secret weapon all four major powers had to come together to decode it. Again not 20 powers, not 5, not 10. Four.
Well the Breen were in the alpha qaudrant and they were significant enough to make an impact on the dominion war. I would suggest a couple other alpha-beta quadrant empires that might have been significant enough to be considered a power. Tholians, not sure why they were left out of the canon possibly due to difficulty with being an expensive race to pull off in the show with regards to CGI etc... Sheliac corporate is another one possibly left out for similar reasons as silicon based lifeforms required too much effort to be regularly shown on tv and movies. In the early days of TNG the Ferengi were considered to be equivalent to the federation in technology and such it wasnt until DS9 that they sort of recreated them to be strictly business entrepreneurs and less militaristic! They had fleets of mauraders and other ships in tng and then in ds9 we only ever see small ferengi shuttle craft or trader vessels so where did their war ships all go in only a handful of years?

The show does seem to emphasize the big 4 alpha-beta quadrant races that we all know but that doesnt mean it wouldnt be fun to have more than 4 playable major races. I too have played the new horizons mod for stellaris that you mentioned and I can tell you some of my favorite games were when playing a lesser known race even if it made the game significantly more difficult. I'm remembering playing as the lowly Kazon and starting so close to borg space in the delta quadrant, yikes!!! Having the option to play pretty much any race was fun there was like 100 choices in that game! I'm not gonna lie I think it would be awesome if a botf 2 game would have the dominion and the borg available as a playable race too. Maybe an expansion can be done later to facilitate something like this?

Having said all of that I can see how it would be difficult since we dont have many canon ships for some of the other races and limited information for them in regards to culture etc. You would probably need to rely on some non canon resources or invent some of it which has been done in plenty of star trek games in the past. I'm thinking of the kessok for a non canon alpha qaudrant race that gave the federation a lot of trouble!
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Re: INTRODUCING: Rebirth of the Federation

Post by trevtones »

I wanted to show some canon star trek galaxy maps for some context. These are the best I could find. Everyone seems to forget that the galaxy is not 2 dimensional! :lol:
Canongalaxymap6.jpg
Canongalaxymap1.gif
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Re: INTRODUCING: Rebirth of the Federation

Post by Flocke »

trevtones wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2026 5:00 pm I wanted to show some canon star trek galaxy maps for some context. These are the best I could find. Everyone seems to forget that the galaxy is not 2 dimensional! :lol:
Star Trek maps always appeared to be very inaccurate. And yes, 2 dimensional thinking is prevalent, also among canon story writers. Thinking of the Redemption II episode there where they attempted to establish a "blockade" between Klingon and Romulan space!
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Blockade

But we take what we get and the only half-way plausible explanaition would be that there was another empire in between that is missing from the map. No superiour sensors or space anomaly would explain that on such a large scale they could not find another path. And I remember in that sequel it was explictly stated to be the only direct connection they have without compromising other empire borders.
Most probably they could have used another path anyhow, but missed authorization for violating some other empire's territories.

But even when territories might have changed over time, above maps don't look much canon to me.
For having such a huge border between Klingon and Romulan space, it must be long after TNG and DS9. :???:

Therefore I favor the following maps from the Starfleet Reference Library:

http://www.startrekmap.com/localspace.html

There however you can see that both the Breen, Tholians and Sheliak have vast empires.
And even the Fereni haave a remarkable empire there still.
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Re: INTRODUCING: Rebirth of the Federation

Post by cleverwise »

First off I agree it is interesting playing as a minor race. That does mix up things for sure.

However that does not ignore the "facts" (a made up universe here) that original canon points to only four major powers for the Alpha quadrant. The Dominion war showed that clearly. As stated. If there was another Federation or Romulan type level empire both sides (Dominion and Federation) would have been trying to talk said empire onto their side.

That said, and as acknowledged, not all minors are equal. It is even in canon that some minors were regional powers while others were a single planet. The Ferengi have the ability to be a major power but we all know what they prefer to focus on over central empire building.

So yes some like the Breen or Tholians are more powerful than others. Still if the Breen were such a mighty empire on the same level the Federation and Romulans would have clearly had a defense for the Breen energy weapon. It worked so well because it caught the Federation alliance off guard. Also what was the number one target for the Dominion? The Federation. As stated repeatedly it was the key to the Alpha Quadrant as mentioned in DS9.

Still this is all scifi so one can really argue anything they like such as the Terran Empire. As mentioned Star Trek canon itself played with all kinds of alternate realities and universes.

Now to the game. This gets more complex to model as clearly there are time limits and resource limits. Still it would be interesting to play more empires on a RotF type game... eventually. What if the Federation never formed? What if Earth didn't even exist? Etc.

In my opinion each minor power would not need its own interface design. Sure have the big four with their unique skins but the other powers could just share a similar layout only with different ship designs and building names.

So I am with you on the some minors are minor majors but nothing in original canon points to as equal power in the Alpha as the big four.

I will say in the vanilla BotF I always thought the Federation was way to anti-war. I get the Federation is not, by design, the aggressors... well on paper. However I always thought if war was declared on the Federation the civilian population should have been more understanding. I know it makes gameplay more challenging but come on sometimes in war you just have to bomb the opposite side. While any population always has those that disagree I thought the huge morale penalty was overplayed. Total genocide okay I get it. Enslaving I get it but let's face a "real" Federation wouldn't make real slaves. They would take over a planet and then install Federation values. They wouldn't hold beings as actual slaves. So really conquering for the Federation is more like colonizing it with Federation aligned government structures not keeping troops on the streets and forcing all beings to bow down.

In canon they were forced to attack planets at times. Life happens and no empire is bloodless free.

Added: I still think having four playable empires, especially starting off, is the right call.
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Re: INTRODUCING: Rebirth of the Federation

Post by Flocke »

cleverwise wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2026 10:22 pm Added: I still think having four playable empires, especially starting off, is the right call.
Let me second that. It simplifies development for sure and more empires still could be added lateron.
With all the great screens we already got to see, I would want to try things out and see how it plays!

For sure in many scenarios, these four empires were the only remarkable actors. So we just need the right story in place.
Nonetheless, if we wanted more empires, even in canon timeline it would not be hard to argue.

I mean, how would you expect the Tholians or Sheliak to react on a request to join either side's war? A war that barely emerged and they didn't have any contact to the Dominion yet? They actually might be happy for the change of powers! The Breen clearly picked sides and had enough ships to make a difference.

And while there always is only talk of 4 quadrants in the galaxy, there is lots of indication that none of them is fully explored. Existing maps indicate large empires that barely appeared in the show. So even when they state there was only 4 empires, it might just be inaccurate. Instead they rather talk on empires the Federation is involved with that are known to have comparable powers. Which is exactly what we see in the Dominion wars.

These are the four large powers that always kept messing with each other about the Alpha and Beta quadrants. All others they just don't know enough about and rather keep out of any large conflict. :wink:


But back to the ROTF game. Like said and talked to Dafedz before, I love all the UI style he made!
And I believe that the game has great potential! It's amazing how far he got in that short amount of time! :up:

When you keep up that speed Dafedz, soon it'll be a full game worth to play. And from there have a look what feature to add or improve.
I already love it from what I can see! And I also like that it attempts to improve on certain gameplay mechanics. Like the second build queue for the ships you added. But it will have to be seen how it actually plays. And it for sure never is going to replace my beloved Vanilla BotF 1!! :mrgreen:
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Re: INTRODUCING: Rebirth of the Federation

Post by cleverwise »

Flocke wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2026 2:36 am I mean, how would you expect the Tholians or Sheliak to react on a request to join either side's war? A war that barely emerged and they didn't have any contact to the Dominion yet? They actually might be happy for the change of powers! The Breen clearly picked sides and had enough ships to make a difference.
Not really. In DS9 they clearly said it was the Breen weapon that neutralized the Federation and Romulan ships although how was not really explained in great detail. Anyway it was pointed out that only like 1500 Klingon ships (if memory serves on the number) were holding the lines. If the Breen made that much difference the Klingons would have failed. Also on the final push, while costly, the Federation alliance ran through the Dominion/Breen alliance and ended up at the home world. I don't see the Breen making that much of a difference in numbers but rather that surprise mystery energy weapon and in the end it didn't really make that much of a difference.

If there were other great powers the Dominion would have been begging them for help. I am not saying there weren't some with localized power but again nothing at the big four level.

What is more plausible, from canon, are the unexplored areas. Plus it could be argued some of the Delta quadrant powers spilled into the Alpha quadrant even species 8472 from fluidic space.

However for gameplay it is not practicable to try to model all these powers. So yeah the big four are the classic powers. The game looks awesome.
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Re: INTRODUCING: Rebirth of the Federation

Post by Flocke »

cleverwise wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2026 8:21 am Anyway it was pointed out that only like 1500 Klingon ships (if memory serves on the number) were holding the lines. If the Breen made that much difference the Klingons would have failed. Also on the final push, while costly, the Federation alliance ran through the Dominion/Breen alliance and ended up at the home world. I don't see the Breen making that much of a difference in numbers but rather that surprise mystery energy weapon and in the end it didn't really make that much of a difference.
That reads like the Breen destroyed about 312 allied warships in second battle at Chin'toka system only with cardboard boxes. Wonder how they made it to attack Earth! And wonder what led the Dominion to offer the Breen Cardassian territories in exchange for their support if it was that negligible.
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Se ... hin%27toka

Sure, they had a superiour weapon, that lateron some countermeasures were found by reverse-engineering a captured weapon.
But still to destroy 312 ships in one battle they must have had a decent fleet. And it is said they lost several of their ships as well.
Plus countermeasures could have failed or get countered over time as well.

Like stated in https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Breen_Confederacy
"Shrouded in mystery, the Breen Confederacy were one of the most underestimated powers in that quadrant of space."
And by the prelude for the second battle at Chin'toka https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Se ... ka#Prelude
"As a result, the governments of the Alpha Quadrant considered the Breen to be little more than a minor regional power."
cleverwise wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2026 8:21 am If there were other great powers the Dominion would have been begging them for help. I am not saying there weren't some with localized power but again nothing at the big four level.
Whatever their actual forces were, one shouldn't underestimate the Breen. Nor should one underestimate powers like the Tholian and the Sheliak that barely any contact has been established with. It might very well be the Dominion tried to beg them but other than the Breen they had refused.

Anyway, while I'd love to have more options, 4 empires already is a great number to play! :)
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