\\\-- Balance of Power (v1.2c released)--///

[Flocke]

OK, raiding percentages can now be fixed, and the new maximum value (in the next BoP version) will most probably be 95% for the Federation and 120% for the Ferengi, with the other empires in-between

That's phantastic, even though this reduction might be a little too drastic.

Colony ship production rate AND the cost ratio of colony ships vs troop transports have both been dictated by the insta-terraforming bug and some other limitations in the past. However, I've looked at the part of the code that reads the colony property values, and it looks as if the upper bound for CS production rates can be removed, allowing a good solution by drastically raising (not reducing! Remember the TTs) them.

Well, even if you can't keep terraforming-production cost-ratio in balance for tt and colony ships when making colony ships more expansive, I would still prefer having solved the massive colonisation trouble. That troop transports become a real good and cheap terraforming support again isn't such a bad thing - you'll still need a colony ship in fleet for terraforming and terraforming-production of tts wouldn't have to be raised so actually it's not dictated by insta-terraforming bug but just the obvious thought of having colony ships the main terraforming units.
In my opinion it would even be a nice alternative having tts as main terraforming-production units, meaning that people use fleets containing one colony ship + up to 8 troop transports for fast terraforming.

[Gowron]

Well, even if you can't keep terraforming-production cost-ratio in balance for tt and colony ships when making colony ships more expansive, I would still prefer having solved the massive colonisation trouble.

Looks like we can have both
Now that colony ship production can be increased above 9, it's possible to improve the balance of CSs and TTs. The next limitation is the fact that terraforming costs are 2-byte integers, but that's still a factor of ~10.

[The_Nighthawk]

Can anyone tell me, with Thunderchero's new 1.03 project, and that new version of BoP 1.1, whether the trek.exe includes the trade goods 1:1 update, and if not, whether it's advisable to use that update from Gowron with thunderchero's new project install of BoP?

I really don't want to mess up the install with trial and error if someone already knows to the answer to this.

[thunderchero]

Can anyone tell me, with Thunderchero's new 1.03 project, and that new version of BoP 1.1, whether the trek.exe includes the trade goods 1:1 update, and if not, whether it's advisable to use that update from Gowron with thunderchero's new project install of BoP?

I really don't want to mess up the install with trial and error if someone already knows to the answer to this.

not sure what you are asking? But using new installer and BOP installer. The files are unchanged from the files you would get from Gowron's shared folder. 1.0.3 is a completly differant install and merges no files with any other mods.

thunderchero

[Spocks-cuddly-tribble]

NO

Either you do that with multi.exe:

The square root operation (D9FA) is found at position 0x5FD1B and at position 0x6039C.
Changing D9FA to 9090 at both positions will result in trade goods generating credits equal to the system's current industry output.

or you change the registry entry at Gowron's patched exe.

[The_Nighthawk]

Right.

So the answer is do NOT install thunderchero's new sekrat multi-installs of 1.02, and BoP 1.1, then put gowron's trade patch trek.exe into the BOPE folder, because you will get massive fail.

Either change Thunder's trek.exe as stated by tribble, or just play with the trade goods giving the old income (root of industry).

Thanks.

[Flocke]

I think the trade good 1:1 patch has been a bad workaround anyway.
With scrapping ships only giving half the money back, the trade good patch would have to be aligned, too.
And trade good patch doesn't regard the warptubes replicator giving additional ship production, so is giving less outcome than with building and scrapping ships, anyway, right?

But I belive, Gowron will update that one for next release, too.
Maybe the warptube replicators should be removed to keep the outcome equal with ship scrapping.

[The_Nighthawk]

Yes, now that ship scrapping can be changed directly, I'm sure we'll see something in between. But for the meantime, until release 1.11 or 1.2, scrapping ships in BoP is still a full refund. It's only 1.03 vanilla that is a 50% return. So with that in mind, I like the full trade good = industry for a short term fix until the next release.

As for the warpcoil replicator, yes they can generate you extra money if you build ships for scrapping, but you also have to power them and a shipyard, and are limited by dilithium, or your ability to juggle the phantom dilithium bug. On some systems it's more efficient to just go with trade goods, especially once you've gotten level 3 industry and a high morale.

[Spocks-cuddly-tribble]

I would prefer scrap = zero. That puts player on a level with AI (no money scrap script) and it relativizes the advantage of the tech leading player in epic game. Since a rush fleet conversion with modernest ships can't financed by scrapping of obsolete ships.

Also a funny aspect of scrap for cash: Who actually buys these ships?
Oftentimes there're only enemies and selling warships to them (at war?) sounds not very realistic to me.

But I don't expect any support for that. (Yes I like harder games)

I think I found an interesting way to solve the "phantom dilithium" issue, to be exact: render it useless via dilithium restriction of shipyards.

That would be funny until that MP game where you can only find one Dilithium source, while your opponent has five or six Dil systems running

Hmm....

BOTF is not meant to be fair, and tactics should be adjusted according to your situation.

So...

What's the matter, Colonel Sandurz...CHICKEN?!

Just kidding. As my smiley implied. I never expected it will be used for a mod.

Another thought is to reintroduce the shild generator now restricted to home systems, in order to avert the danger of the popular take-home-system-first strategy. Also harder fortified home worlds would be more realistic.

This sounds good, if a building slot can be freed for this purpose. The required additional slot in the energy allocation screen could be a problem, but we'll see

Is an energy requirement really needed for all the buildings allocated there?

Also its very funny that planetary shields needs less energy than let's take the government buildings.
That seriously implies a willful waste of taxes...

IMHO that bug is not too much of a problem, since it only affects non-Ferengi home systems...

I'm pretty sure ruthlessferengi will happily agree with this one.

The Bajorans had very low weapon tech levels (compared to the other tech areas or compared to the evolution level) in vanilla BotF, so IIRC they had to reach their 8th evolution level in order to be able to build their ships.

There is something strange, sometimes they build ships at start of game. Looks as an error of thier weapon tech progress then.

[Turner]

I would prefer scrap = zero. That puts player on a level with AI (no money scrap script) and it relativizes the advantage of the tech leading player in epic game.

What did you mean with this no money scrap script? Is that a feature of BOP or did you mean the affinity of the AI of scrapping ships, if their shipyard is destroyed an their are out of range? Because the statement, the AI gets no money for scrapping ships, is not correct.

Also a funny aspect of scrap for cash: Who actually buys these ships?
Oftentimes there're only enemies and selling warships to them (at war?) sounds not very realistic to me.

Yes, i've often asked me this question too. Their is indeed no realistic buyer for complete warships. But if you dismantle those ships, you could sell the metal and the interior of these ships to your own people. If you are lucky, you could get the half of the building cost back.

[ruthlessferengi]

time and time again i can't get OVER the fact that this mod is so fabulous... Just had a nice little MP for 3 human players, game was rock solid - through several battles, the last one being between klingons (8 heavy, 8 tactical, 15 light) and ferengi (21 heavy, 10 tactical, 1 light) - at least 10 or 12 turns worked out beautifully... and that's given my machine was puny aspire one, no videocard, jast accelerator...

This is the only mod, that at allows equal playing field for all races to be played in MP setting at small universe T5 - all races have decent ships and production to get some serious blood letting by turn 25... and the beauty is - for the loser of a the big battle, possibility of rebound is quite real... great mod

[Spocks-cuddly-tribble]

What did you mean with this no money scrap script? Is that a feature of BOP or did you mean the affinity of the AI of scrapping ships, if their shipyard is destroyed an their are out of range? Because the statement, the AI gets no money for scrapping ships, is not correct.

"Script" refers to a behavioral issue i.e. AI cannot scrap with intent for money. Only as you said by loss of map-range or if total credits sink less than zero (in this case AI scrap ALL ships regardless of positions). It's just random luck if the ships are located in own systems.

Their is indeed no realistic buyer for complete warships. But if you dismantle those ships, you could sell the metal and the interior of these ships to your own people. If you are lucky, you could get the half of the building cost back.

Of course that's more a funny than a proper argument. And btw be happy that you haven't to pay for disposal of old ships.
But "scrap" doesn't mean and shouldn't mean "sell" & money. I always disliked this exploit. It makes things too easy and supports absconding from consequences of the own fleet buildup strategy. Also scraping of buildings brings almost nothing (square root?).

[Weirdness]

I have a couple questions...

Maybe I DL'd a corrupt version of BoP, but the new skins for the soverign and defiant are all FUBAR for me, and I am getting tactical combat crashes <again> ... I am at a loss here... What in the sh** causes these crashes, and how do I fix?!

I am assuminmg you included a tac combat fix in the mod. if you didn't just direct me to one that is comaptible with your mod.

PS why wont Hades3D work?

[thunderchero]

Gowron,

I was tring to get the latest exe for BOP and your 4 shared site is down. At least when I try.

I have a couple questions...

Maybe I DL'd a corrupt version of BoP, but the new skins for the soverign and defiant are all FUBAR for me, and I am getting tactical combat crashes <again> ... I am at a loss here... What in the sh** causes these crashes, and how do I fix?!

I am assuminmg you included a tac combat fix in the mod. if you didn't just direct me to one that is comaptible with your mod.

PS why wont Hades3D work?

You might have gotten a bad download? but it depends on how you are installing was this a manual install or did you use installer from download section? Both versions are not compatable with hades due to there are 512x512 gifs in files. So hades will not work!

thunderchero

[Weirdness]

You might have gotten a bad download? but it depends on how you are installing was this a manual install or did you use installer from download section? Both versions are not compatable with hades due to there are 512x512 gifs in files. So hades will not work!

thunderchero

I used the installer. I was always susceptible to the tac combat crashes even with the fixes available for DL. The only one that really works for me is the Hades3D. haven't had a single crash ever <yet> with Hades' patch. Such a shame. What I DID play with BoP was excellent otherwise...