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Re: Supremacy new release
Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:56 pm
by Spocks-cuddly-tribble
Iceman wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:28 am- there is a morale boost after eliminating other empire, but I am not sure if the former systems of that empire should also participate in that boost
You mean that if I eliminate the Romulans, any romulan colony that I have subjugated should not get the morale boost? I don't think we make that test, no...
But it makes sense.
As a reminder, in BotF it's a combination of two morale effects:
- 30 for all remaining native systems of the fallen empire (regardless of current owner)
+ 50 for all systems owned by the killer empire (bug/omission if the last system was killed instead of conquered)
And for some reason they load the same 'Eliminate Empire' morale boost value (50) +10 as aditional local morale penalty for conquering enemy home systems....
Re: Supremacy new release
Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:13 pm
by Iceman
Thanks SCT!
- 30 for all remaining native systems of the fallen empire (regardless of current owner)
That's for completely eliminating the empire, not when destroying/subjugating the homesystem, correct?
And for some reason they load the same 'Eliminate Empire' morale boost value (50) +10 as aditional local morale penalty for conquering enemy home systems....
What exactly do you mean by this?
-60 morale where? In the conquered enemy homesystem?
Re: Supremacy new release
Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:25 pm
by Spocks-cuddly-tribble
Both correct.
I don't remember if the conquered enemy home system penalty affects not only the current but also the base morale.
You can look up the asm code location listed here:
viewtopic.php?p=31770#p31770
Re: Supremacy new release
Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:26 am
by Spocks-cuddly-tribble
I just remembered in BotF there is also extra morale penalties each turn in conquered systems (-1 / home -2). But not for AI which instead enjoys a +3 bonus for all systems with current morale lower than base borale.
So it's unlikely the penalty (-60) in conquered enemy home systems does also affect the base morale.
Re: Supremacy new release
Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:41 am
by Iceman
Yea, the -1 morale in conquered systems is already in; not -2 for the homesystem though. And no cheats for the AI here
Meanwhile I fixed the other penalties mentioned above so that they don't happen if the homesystem had already been subjugated / the empire had already been eliminated by someone else.
Re: Supremacy new release
Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:18 pm
by Spocks-cuddly-tribble
Iceman wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:16 amDoes this (
and should it) apply to homesystems of
minor races too?
I double checked the code and -2 is conquered empire home systems only. Conquered minor is same as conquered empire colony -1.
Other local morale effects when conquering or freeing systems: (+ the global empire wide morale table events)
-20 in conquered foreign systems (major, minor or home)
+15 in reconquered own systems (home or native)
Base morale is each reset according to the 'base morale when controlled by' table.
Note the strange -60 code exception is not necessarily in conquered homesystems. It checks the RToSInfo which (according to the analysis by Flocke) contains StarIDs of homesystems, but this is not always the case.
-60 has to be the last system held and native (both requirements needed), coincidentally often homesystem. -60 on top of the above listed -20.
Given the desolate state of the code area, there is no way to tell what was intended. Might be a failed attempt to prevent 'eliminate empire' euphory in its native systems (as Geordie requested).
Example for the last conquered native system of a just killed empire:
-20 local (in conquered foreign)
-60 local (in conquered last native system held)
-30 semi-global (for all native of the just killed empire)
+50 global (eliminate empire) empire wide morale table
+-? global (subjugate system) empire wide morale table
-1 (-2 if major home) conquered extra penalty (after all other base morale checks and calculations)
And there may be even more special cases and factors connected to BotF's morale. What 'should be' in Supremacy, now is on you and your guys.
Re: Supremacy new release
Posted: Sat Apr 24, 2021 9:25 am
by Iceman
This got me thinking if the morale penalty should apply to colonies where an Inquisition is being "built" or is already in effect.
Question:
Subjugated colonies should not get any morale modifiers (either positive or negative)
Morale
Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2021 12:50 pm
by Iceman
This thread is for discussing Morale related issues, especially in non-native colonies.
The objective is to find out if there should be any changes and if so, make sure that they're reasonably logical but don't break gameplay and balance.
Will move some posts from the main thread here.
Re: Morale
Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2021 1:38 pm
by Iceman
I think that it doesn't make much sense that subjugated systems (minor or empire) get any morale modifiers (positive or negative) from the morale table.
Code: Select all
TableStart MoraleEventResults
ColumnHeadingsStart (Default) FEDERATION CARDASSIANS ROMULANS KLINGONS DOMINION BORG
RowHeadingsStart
EliminateEmpire 50 50 50 50 50 50 0
WinMajorBattle 5 5 4 6 3 4 0
WinSignificantBattle 3 3 2 4 2 2 0
WinMinorBattle 1 1 1 2 1 1 0
LoseMajorBattle -10 -10 -10 -13 -8 -7 0
LoseSignificantBattle -7 -7 -7 -9 -4 -5 0
LoseMinorBattle -3 -3 -3 -4 -2 -2 0
SignMembershipTreaty 3 10 1 2 1 3 0
SubjugateSystem 0 -10 4 4 3 2 0
ColonizeSystem 3 3 2 3 1 4 0
LiberateMinorRaceSystem 4 20 -5 2 1 3 0
LiberateNativeSystem 6 9 5 10 3 4 0
LoseHomeSystemToInvasion -20 -20 -20 -20 -20 -20 0
LoseMemberSystemToInvasion -10 -10 -10 -10 -10 -10 0
LoseSubjugatedSystemToInvasion -10 -5 -10 -10 -10 -10 0
LoseSystemToRebellion -13 -20 -5 -20 -10 -10 0
BombardSystem 0 -5 2 2 1 -1 0
DeclareWarOnEmpire 0 -10 3 5 5 1 0
EmpireDeclaresWar 3 5 3 5 2 1 0
RejectPeaceTreaty -2 -5 -5 2 1 -5 0
BreakTreaty -7 -20 1 -1 -10 -5 0
SignPeaceTreaty 1 5 1 1 -3 2 0
SignAlliance 8 20 3 5 3 10 0
TableEnd
Not that everything in a game has to make sense, but suspension of disbelief only goes so far
The EliminateEmpire bonus is cancelled out by other factors
-20 local (in conquered foreign)
-30 semi-global (for all native of the just killed empire)
+50 global (eliminate empire) empire wide morale table
But what do subjugated colonies care with LoseHomeSystemToInvasion or SignMembershipTreaty or even ColonizeSystem etc?
Hence the question above:
Subjugated colonies should not get any morale modifiers (either positive or negative)?
And also:
This got me thinking if the morale penalty should apply to colonies where an Inquisition is being "built" or is already in effect.
-60 local (in conquered last native system held)
-60 on top of the above listed -20.
Is this to cancel out the +50 (eliminate empire) and get that colony in line with the other colonies -30 (for all native of the just killed empire) ?
Re: Morale
Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2021 2:20 pm
by geordie
I think that the tricky point is whether the empire really was completely subjugated if any system rebelled in the same turn.
If we assume that it is true, the empire may collapse many times giving enormous morale boost to the conqueror.
I am against any morale gain for conquered natives of killed empire, so maybe to leave a morale drop, but only to a certain level, like 30 for example.
Re: Morale
Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:14 pm
by Iceman
geordie wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 2:20 pm
I think that the tricky point is whether the empire really was completely subjugated if any system rebelled in the same turn.
That's something I'm going to fix next.
If we assume that it is true, the empire may collapse many times giving enormous morale boost to the conqueror.
Yes. The only thing that I can think of that might be done to prevent that is to make those rebellious colonies join an independent faction instead of the original empire.
I am against any morale gain for conquered natives of killed empire, so maybe to leave a morale drop, but only to a certain level, like 30 for example.
Well, removing the +50 bonus to those colonies is what caused that catastrophe in your game
Re: Morale
Posted: Tue May 04, 2021 5:04 pm
by geordie
So I would prefer to have neither -30 nor +50 for natives of fallen empire. Gaining on that fall is somehow artificial for me.
Hey, I have just learnt that it is possible to buy the Inquisition! Quite useful sometimes
Re: Morale
Posted: Wed May 05, 2021 2:49 pm
by Iceman
geordie wrote: ↑Tue May 04, 2021 5:04 pm
So I would prefer to have neither -30 nor +50 for natives of fallen empire. Gaining on that fall is somehow artificial for me.
I have disabled all global morale modifiers in subjugated colonies, for the next patch. Let's see how that goes.
Hey, I have just learnt that it is possible to buy the Inquisition! Quite useful sometimes
It shouldn't be... I'll look into it.
edit:
I checked the code, and I also checked in your game, and I cannot purchase an Inquisition, whether in progress or under construction.
Re: Morale
Posted: Wed May 05, 2021 4:18 pm
by geordie
Oooh you can buy it when it is under construction! But... only in the colony list. It's quite cheap btw
- Screenshot (28).jpg (529.96 KiB) Viewed 3266 times
In that example it might be really necessary to use
Re: Morale
Posted: Wed May 05, 2021 4:54 pm
by Iceman
Ah, great catch! Fixed.