Diplomacy - testing

[Iceman]

Starting a new thread for feedback on the current state of diplomacy, with all the changes being made.
If you guys can stress test the whole thing, please post your feedback here, so we can better track the issues.

Latest changes include:
breaking specific agreements
offer/request resources
pact durations
ceding contested territory option

Check if the effects are working, and if not, please describe the problem as accurately as possible. Savegames might also help.
Any UI issues are also game.


Note: the Inbox still does not show proposals made by AI civs. That will be fixed in a few days.

[Iceman]

Cede territory is not working yet.



Should we allow requesting resources from minor civs Feels like a potential exploit.

Offering resources to a minor civ that has no use for them (has no ship designs) should not have any effect Or result in an automatic non-acceptance

I've noticed a few minor details, will fix.

[Danijel]

Requests, yea,...both ways,...you can degrade relations massively then.
Its what usually happens in most other games, any "your demand" is penalized on relation(heavy), could loose up to 80%(usually less than 50%) "standings" with minor, talking still bout most other rts games where "demands" are made by player, its less penalized(light-10-20%) if you dont meet what AI demanded from you.
This should also have heavier impact on races like romulan, klingons(degrade relation even faster/easier),...and other ones who "hate" any form of rejecting/ignoring their demands (% are used in manner if your standing to that race is at max)
Are standings only "positive" or they can go in "negative" numbers also?

Too many races, should prolly be auto rejected, easier for gameplay, and less confusing for new player

[Iceman]

Changes in today's patch:

Breaking some agreements should now cause drops in both Regard and Trust. For now, it's a static drop, but it will eventually depend on some factors. Only Membership and Offer/Request Credits/Resources have an effect for now.
The Cardassians and the Feds double the Trust penalty they get for breaking agreements. Isolationist minors also double the Trust penalty when an empire breaks membership with them.
Breaking an Offer/Request Credits/Resources agreement can also have a positive impact if you break a request you made (thus ending the payment prematurely).

The AI now takes into account all credits offers it made during a turn to determine if it can make more offers that turn. It was being too generous...


You should now be able to see and accept/reject proposals made by the AI. Please check.

[Iceman]

In the 22jun patch, breaking any agreement should impact relations.
Please check if the effects (Regard/Trust , plus Morale) are working, and if they are balanced.
Right now, breaking any agreement produces the same penalty for Regard and for Trust - this should probably be adjusted, suggestions are welcome!

Regard/Trust penalties, in order of magnitude:
Alliance, Mutual Defense
Membership
Affiliation, Cease-Fire, War Pact
Open Borders
Offer Credits/Resources (these will eventually be determined by remaning duration and amount of credits/resources)

When breaking agreements, the Cardassians will get a higher Trust penalty, and the Federation a higher Regard penalty.
Breaking agreements with Isolationist minors will cause increase the Regard and Trust penalties.


Feedback is welcome, and ideas on how to make this better too!

[geordie]

I proposed a territory cession, but together with some money, deliberately, proposing a membership treaty. Difficult to estimate an influence of both conditions but the treaty was established.
I propose to exclude the cession option from the membership proposal as in fact it is costless.

[Iceman]

You have a point, yes. Doesn't make sense to be able to Offer/Request Cede Territory with Membership - or any other Treaty (Affiliation, Mutual Defense, Alliance) in fact.
edit: there might need to be a distinction between Affiliation with a minor or with an empire

For Pacts (Open Borders, Cease-Fire, War Pact), since they're limited in duration, maybe it makes sense to keep Cede Territory


Cede Territory doesn't yet have an influence in the acceptance/rejection of proposals, I was actually thinking about precisely that - we now have the tools, I think, to implement that, so it should be coming soon. At least the amount of ceded sectors; the importance of those sectors, that's another story...

[Iceman]

Cede Territory doesn't yet have an influence in the acceptance/rejection of proposals, I was actually thinking about precisely that - we now have the tools, I think, to implement that, so it should be coming soon. At least the amount of ceded sectors; the importance of those sectors, that's another story...

In the new patch(es). I set them at 25 Regard per sector IIRC.
All the modifiers for offers/requests need to be tested (preferably separately) and balanced.

[Iceman]

Ignoring a proposal will be in the next patch, so we need to figure out what should happen in those cases.
We talked about a smaller, temporary penalty to relations; but that might just make ignoring proposals be the best option when you do not want to accept them - making rejecting proposals kind of moot.

Currently, rejecting *treaties* carries a morale penalty, so adding a regard penalty on top of that might be overkill. Maybe the regard penalty should be applied only when ignoring proposals You're kind of being "rude", so...

What about gifts, and requests, and demands/threats These do not have a morale penalty when rejected.

Should empires and minors be treated differently in this matter

[Misfire]

Should probably be at minimum the same as rejecting. Worse in some cases, depending on the proposal and civs involved (ie some may take ignoring them very seriously, others might not care).

[Iceman]

A couple more questions:

Should accepting or rejecting a Cease-Fire have an effect on (global) Morale (SignPeaceTreaty and RejectPeaceTreaty respectively)

Right now you get the SignAlliance (global) Morale effect when signing a Mutual Defense Treaty and an Alliance Treaty. This means you can get it twice if you sign MD and then Alliance. Should we just apply it once, that is, if you come from a MD and get an Alliance you do not get it again (if you go straight for an Alliance you only get it once)

[Iceman]

Should we allow requesting resources from minor civs Feels like a potential exploit.

In the next patch, requesting credits and resources from minor civs will be disabled.

Also, minor civs that offer to become members of an empire will now ask for some credits to join, the amount depending on the civ level of the minor civ - it should probably also depend on any hardware they bring with them to the empire.

[geordie]

Fixed a bug that didn't update relations when a minor civ is bribed, making it look like bribes were not implemented - they are, they are working, and the AI empires are building bribe resistance buildings.
Added a SitRep for the bribing empire too when the minor civ cancels membership, so that the player is notified.

The minor civs bribing works fine.
But I assume that a reversal of alliances/memberships is not fully implemented as I was on a "worshipful' level of the attitude and related regard by dozens of turns with some minor races and nothing happened.

Screenshot 2024-07-20 215404.jpg

[Iceman]

The minor civs bribing works fine.

Thanks for testing this, geordie!

But I assume that a reversal of alliances/memberships is not fully implemented as I was on a "worshipful' level of the attitude and related regard by dozens of turns with some minor races and nothing happened.

It is. Well, not really, as the 5% recovery per turn after the bribe (*) is not working properly - but I'll try to fix it.
The minor civ is probably not breaking their membership with their current empire because their relations are not low enough; the threshold value depends on the minor civ's trait:

Code: Select all

Isolationist 700  (easier)
Raider and Mercantile 600
Peaceful and Pacifist 400
Allegiant vs Diplomatic 400
Deceptive vs Secretive or Treacherous 400
Warlike vs Militaristic or Expansionist 400
rest 500

Any suggestions or commets about this are welcome.

edit: thinking about this, those values should probably be the transition values for Regard levels

Code: Select all

Hostile	150
Icy	250
Uncooperative	350
Neutral	450
Receptive	550
Cordial	650
Enthusiastic	750
Worshipful	850

(*) same as in BotF, the current empire (not the one doing the bribing) should get their relations with the minor civ recovered to its previous value by 5% of the Regard bar per turn. Also, the effect of a bribe to a member of another empire is half the standard effect of a gift.

Fixing the recovery will actually make breaking away harder though, I guess.

[geordie]

I don't mind "hard".
I mind "impossible" !!!