Diplomacy - testing

[Iceman]

The Zakdorn has just become a member of the mighty Romulan Star Empire, but the above screenshot shows that they are still at war with the Feds and their allies. No treaty between the Feds and the Roms. The Zakdorn declared that war a couple of turns after leaving the Federation.

I'm not really sure how to handle these cases.

- The Zakdorn were at war with the Feds before joining the Star Empire.
Should they just get a "clean slate" after joining
Should they not be allowed to join an empire that is not at war with the empire they're at war with

- The minors that are members of the Federation are "at war" with the Zakdorn (because the Federation is).
Should the minors of an empire not have their status set to at war when there's a war declaration

I bribed the Klaestrons in turn 337 (5000 of credits) and after that they left the Dominion.

Hmm, odd.


Did you notice the minor civs ignoring your proposals when loading these savegames ?

[geordie]

I'm not really sure how to handle these cases.

- The Zakdorn were at war with the Feds before joining the Star Empire.
Should they just get a "clean slate" after joining
Should they not be allowed to join an empire that is not at war with the empire they're at war with

- The minors that are members of the Federation are "at war" with the Zakdorn (because the Federation is).
Should the minors of an empire not have their status set to at war when there's a war declaration

That's why I wrote that I was not sure if it was OK.
Maybe if we reverse the case it could show a path what to do:
- if I attack, even using the Zakdorn ships, other minor civ, 1. am I attacking them as the Roms or as the Zakdorn under that war declaration?
2. am I attacking the Feds or that minor?

I have a feeling that maybe a forced ceasefire could be a right approach.

Did you notice the minor civs ignoring your proposals when loading these savegames ?

I am getting a lot of ignored proposals, definitely more than accepted ones - I assume that's due to my dominant position in the galaxy.

[Iceman]

That's why I wrote that I was not sure if it was OK.

Yes, I figured that was what you had in mind.

Maybe if we reverse the case it could show a path what to do:
- if I attack, even using the Zakdorn ships, other minor civ,
1. am I attacking them as the Roms or as the Zakdorn under that war declaration?
2. am I attacking the Feds or that minor?

The Zakdorn ships are Romulan ships for all purposes, after they join. So you cannot attack any minor civ that is a member of the Federation - unless you declare war on the Feds ofc.

I have a feeling that maybe a forced ceasefire could be a right approach.

That could make sense if you and the Feds were allied in some way. But in this case, I'm not so sure. They didn't offer to join you, you asked them to join; maybe there should be some "risk" for you, a consequence for your choice.

I am getting a lot of ignored proposals, definitely more than accepted ones - I assume that's due to my dominant position in the galaxy.

I'll need to check that.

Just to let you know - in both cases I reported I was able to convince both races, the Selay and the Klaestrons, to break their membership treaties.
After that in both cases they were immediately my affiliates. So it looks that the affiliation and the membership were somehow valid for the whole time.

If this happens in the new patch with recent contacts or in a new game, please LMK.

[geordie]

Maybe if we reverse the case it could show a path what to do:
- if I attack, even using the Zakdorn ships, other minor civ,
1. am I attacking them as the Roms or as the Zakdorn under that war declaration?
2. am I attacking the Feds or that minor?

The Zakdorn ships are Romulan ships for all purposes, after they join. So you cannot attack any minor civ that is a member of the Federation - unless you declare war on the Feds ofc.

I wanted to prove somehow that in such case the war status looks useless.

[Iceman]

I wanted to prove somehow that in such case the war status looks useless.

Well, for one, the Feds cannot bribe them away from the Star Empire

[geordie]

Well, for one, the Feds cannot bribe them away from the Star Empire

But the Zakdorn war lasts only against the other minors (members of the Federation), not the Feds themselves.

[Iceman]

What do you mean? The Zakdorn are still at war with the Feds after a few turns. I checked, and you even said it yourself:

The Zakdorn has just become a member of the mighty Romulan Star Empire, but the above screenshot shows that they are still at war with the Feds and their allies.

I'm confused, can you explain please?

[geordie]

Sorry for a lack of a proper precision.
In the screenshot I uploaded on Jun 29th the Zakdorn link to the Feds is yellow, not red. The screenshot was from turn 349.
I simply remembered that a couple of turns earlier the Zakdorn declared war to the Feds.
That's why I see a problem, because other minor members only inherited that war from the Federation and after the Zakdorn access to the Romulan Empire they are still at war and the Feds not.

[Iceman]

It was yellow (Unavailable) because of the Membership status, which was hiding the At War status. It is "fixed" in the current patch - either status is valid and has its own drawback (hides information).
I'm really not sure which option is best...

[geordie]

So maybe to add a conditional membership proposal, valid after making peace with ...
Or to be able to propose peace in name of the minor member.

[geordie]

I was playing some more turns and here is one more detail to the pictures.
After my efforts, maily some logical convincing, the Teplans have broken the Feds membership, but now, as independent nation, they still are at war with the Zakdorn. Again not sure if it is correct as their war is only an inherited one.

And one more observation - the Quarren usually accepted my bribes gifts, but their regard level remains unchanged, even as they are a deceptive race and should favor my Romulans, at least to some level. Other races, united with the Feds racted far better.

[Iceman]

After my efforts, maily some logical convincing, the Teplans have broken the Feds membership, but now, as independent nation, they still are at war with the Zakdorn. Again not sure if it is correct as their war is only an inherited one.

Good point. I'll look into it, thanks!
Maybe we should just make member minors not be automatically at war with whoever the empire is at war with, it would solve this issue in particular. What do you think?

And one more observation - the Quarren usually accepted my bribes gifts, but their regard level remains unchanged, even as they are a deceptive race and should favor my Romulans, at least to some level. Other races, united with the Feds racted far better.

Are they members of the Federation? Or some other empire?
They may have strong bribe resistance, and an envoy, and they're a high tech minor which makes them harder to bribe.
If you want me to take a look, post a savegame and some instructions on how to duplicate the issue, please.

[geordie]

Maybe we should just make member minors not be automatically at war with whoever the empire is at war with, it would solve this issue in particular. What do you think?

I am close to agree that it is a proper approach.
Now I dislike that inherited war status, because it looks like a dead one - nothing to do with that.

If you want me to take a look, post a savegame and some instructions on how to duplicate the issue, please.

I think it's worth taking a look - you can use my save 347 I attached on June 29th. The Quarren bribe should be available in a couple of turns.
They are the Federation members, but I was able to break to other membership treaties of the Feds - the Teplans and the Zakdorn ones.

[Iceman]

Maybe we should just make member minors not be automatically at war with whoever the empire is at war with, it would solve this issue in particular. What do you think?

I am close to agree that it is a proper approach.
Now I dislike that inherited war status, because it looks like a dead one - nothing to do with that.

In the next patch, member minors will no longer automatically be at war with whoever the empire declares war on.

If you want me to take a look, post a savegame and some instructions on how to duplicate the issue, please.

I think it's worth taking a look - you can use my save 347 I attached on June 29th. The Quarren bribe should be available in a couple of turns.
They are the Federation members, but I was able to break to other membership treaties of the Feds - the Teplans and the Zakdorn ones.

The Quarren have a very high bribe resistance. They probably have the Comms Grid built in Quarra, and the Feds probably have the EmpireWide Bribe Resistance building built and a charismatic envoy in Quarra. And since you're playing on Impossible, the final modifier is tripled.

[Iceman]

I need to change the code so that bribes that have no effect are either ignored or rejected. Maybe with a(n additional) SitRep stating that the civ is not interested in switching sides or something similar - suggestions are welcome.