Diplomacy - discussion

[Iceman]

I propose the following:
Trade routes get modifiers depending on regard between the two factions.
Enraged x 0.0 (the trade route generates no income)
Hostile x 0.2
Icy x 0.4
Uncooperative x 0.6
Neutral x 0.8
Receptive x 1.0 (Trade route normal value)
Cordial x 1.1
Enthusiastic x 1.2
Worshipful x 1.3 (most minor races are already a member by this time)

The "side-effect" of this is that if relations are "negative", the amount of Regard gained is lower; "positive" relations will yield higher Regard increases. It might be counter-productive in some way.
Just an observation.

[Iceman]

We could compare the output of the TR being cancelled with the total output of TRs you have with the civ

In BotF it's check for a +/- change of sum of total population of sender systems to this recipient.
Credit output of incoming trade routes works like a credit gift each turn. Recipient effect based on sum of total population of sender systems.

A few days ago I was looking into getting rid of this sender/recipient system concept for TRs. The code somewhat assumes that the sender system is owned by the human player - which can create issues in MP games, and when the AI creates TRs.
So Supremacy goes through all systems with active TRs and adds the credits for each TR.

Even The AI will change/cancel trade routes for bigger systems to maximize own trade route income.
So yes, canceling and adding a better route should not be punished since recipient benefits from this.

You're talking about when you change TRs to the same civ/recipient. I wasn't.
I'll try to look into redirecting TRs.

[the6the]

I propose the following:
Trade routes get modifiers depending on regard between the two factions.
Enraged x 0.0 (the trade route generates no income)
Hostile x 0.2
Icy x 0.4
Uncooperative x 0.6
Neutral x 0.8
Receptive x 1.0 (Trade route normal value)
Cordial x 1.1
Enthusiastic x 1.2
Worshipful x 1.3 (most minor races are already a member by this time)

The "side-effect" of this is that if relations are "negative", the amount of Regard gained is lower; "positive" relations will yield higher Regard increases. It might be counter-productive in some way.
Just an observation.

Oh I see what you mean. I never thought of the impact it would have on getting regard back up. The lower the amount the TR's bring in, the lower the regard gain.. Well it does make sense though. The bigger the hole you dig concerning your relations, the harder it is to get yourself out.

One way to get around that is if the each TR generates a flat regard across the board, regardless of revenue. Would that be worth looking into?

[Iceman]

Credit output of incoming trade routes works like a credit gift each turn. Recipient effect based on sum of total population of sender systems.

Could you be more specific about this please?

Even The AI will change/cancel trade routes for bigger systems to maximize own trade route income.
So yes, canceling and adding a better route should not be punished since recipient benefits from this.

The threads about TRs are not very clear about effects.
This one seem to imply that the source gets

[output per turn] = 0.05 * [population of source system] + 0.1 * [population of destination system]

and the recipient gets

0.05 * [population of source system] credits per turn

and this value is used as the effect to Regard (doubled for Friendship, tripled for Affiliation).

Is this correct

Are the effects the same for both minor civs and for empires?
(there's a specific reference to minors, hence the question)

[Spocks-cuddly-tribble]

Credit output of incoming trade routes works like a credit gift each turn. Recipient effect based on sum of total population of sender systems.

Could you be more specific about this please?

The quote context was AI recipient empires, IIRC.

They get the credits plus an attitude effect as if you gave them a gift with the same total amount of all incoming trade routes from your empire.

But it's a complex matter e.g. ferengi free trade routes without trade treaty create full credits in both directions (different amount calculations outgoing/incoming) but the attitude effect is multiplied by 0.25 for AI empires (0.35 for minors).

The attidue effect towards AI empires is kinda erratic/negligible among other factors (many random codes and no stockpile effect).

For the minor attitude effect apply many modifiers discussed in trade route and gift topics (they don't use credits in BotF).

[output per turn] = 0.05 * [population of source system] + 0.1 * [population of destination system]

and the recipient gets

0.05 * [population of source system] credits per turn

and this value is used as the effect to Regard (doubled for Friendship, tripled for Affiliation).

Is this correct

Credits yes (minors don't use them in BotF and create no outgoing trade routes), regard no.

Are the effects the same for both minor civs and for empires?
(there's a specific reference to minors, hence the question)

No, see above.

Base value is the incoming trade route credits 'gift'.

Ferengi free trade without treaty - attitude effect modifier: major 0.25, minor 0.35.

For minors *7 then all gift effect moddifiers (see Gowron): viewtopic.php?p=13#p13

I think the attitude value itself has a range from 0-1000 represented via imprecise 25(?) bars in the GUI.

UE can edit the minor race defaut attitudes vs empires so Flocke should be able to verify this.

[Iceman]

Thanks for taking the time to write all this, I really appreciate it!
It's too much text though, my head hurts just to look at it
Too messy to try to really understand it, I guess I'll just keep it as it is now, and make some adjustments.