Issues in MP games

[Lakotavar]

OK, I see. Additionally the AI actually prefers to colonize systems close to or towards other players means they take the more contested systems first and then go back in the other direction to colonize outer systems that I would not really care for.. smart (I do the same ) I guess then it'll be random home system coordinates in the next game.

[Iceman]

I think the only remaining issues in MP games, still pending verification with the latest release, are:

- if 1st contact between human players gets triggered

- if all contacts from both sides are shared immediately when signing an Alliance

Correct

[Lakotavar]

Concerning the main or original issues, correct. And we will definitely do that

You had the extra list that I tried to answer partially already but some situations are harder to trigger than others (and it has a short edited update). If there's something really important for a late game we could still do that in the old MP.
Otherwise finally we felt like starting over with a new game next time since I easily defeated the dominions ships and it would only be a matter of time until my friend deals with the systems. Klingons are no serious threat and remained untouched.
Getting all the colonies is a tedious task if only one can do it. The Fed would get a serious moral issue here.. The game would be basically over for them once the diplomacy is settled. That's why the bribe for smaller civs to join me would be nice.

[Iceman]

The unknown status of allied ships should be fixed, and map data sharing too.
The 2 points mentioned above might be due to parallelization, we need to test them with the latest release to check - that's why I mentioned them specifically.

Am I forgetting something else?

terraforming planets - will check (side note: one can "steal" the system via colonization while the other is still terraforming more planets)

If the civs are at war with each other, yes.
Can't recall if being Allied+ or Affiliated+ also should allow this, will have to check the code.

[Iceman]

Otherwise finally we felt like starting over with a new game next time since I easily defeated the dominions ships and it would only be a matter of time until my friend deals with the systems. Klingons are no serious threat and remained untouched.

Do you feel there is some weakness in the AI (which is far from being fully developed), and/or ships stats that need tweaking?
Or are these consequences of them being attcked by 2 empires, piecemeal?

Getting all the colonies is a tedious task if only one can do it. The Fed would get a serious moral issue here.. The game would be basically over for them once the diplomacy is settled. That's why the bribe for smaller civs to join me would be nice.

The Feds are not supposed to win through conquest, but through diplomacy and/or tech. Bribing must be viable, yes, but we need to be careful not to make it OP / membership be all but useless for other empires (because the Feds will always steal their members).

[Lakotavar]

The unknown status of allied ships should be fixed, and map data sharing too.
The 2 points mentioned above might be due to parallelization, we need to test them with the latest release to check - that's why I mentioned them specifically.

Am I forgetting something else?

No, that's the new stuff. Thanks.

If the civs are at war with each other, yes.
Can't recall if being Allied+ or Affiliated+ also should allow this, will have to check the code.

Actually I enjoyed the possibility so I hope it'll stay..
To be clear for unclaimed sectors we were always able to colonize a system if another empire terraformed at least one planet. That helped often times to quickly get the system and then we would continue terraforming the remaining planets. The colonisation claim such as with the other human player did probably not matter because the AI usually tried to terraform all planets before colonisation so they didn't try to colonize at the same time.

I understand that for parallel colonisation attempts there should be a claim. But as long as one tries to terraform all planets and meanwhile somebody lands the colony ship, well bad luck.. that should be fine on my opinion. It could be like that in "star trek reality".
However it should maybe effect the diplomacy more.. Didn't really see an effect on that.

[Lakotavar]

Do you feel there is some weakness in the AI (which is far from being fully developed), and/or ships stats that need tweaking?
Or are these consequences of them being attcked by 2 empires, piecemeal

It was basically me removing the ships from the map while my friend did the ugly work on the planets. I just had many more combat ships than the other empires at least going one by one. Would have been different if they made a war pact but I had an alliance with the others and actually with all initially.
It felt like easy settings not really normal as it says in the lobby. But I played botf- like games a lot and the game would definitely be harder for a beginner.
I think the values of the ships were OK. If I show up with twice as many ships and two levels ahead I should destroy them in one turn I guess. Though it would be easier to notice balancing issues in one on one battles which didn't happen too often.

The Feds are not supposed to win through conquest, but through diplomacy and/or tech. Bribing must be viable, yes, but we need to be careful not to make it OP / membership be all but useless for other empires (because the Feds will always steal their members).

Absolutely, I know. And you're right about the Fed balancing (the bribe feature should work but with the discussed restrictions).
That's why I decided to destroy the ships as I had anyways the stronger fleet and my friend went for the planets. He had less systems so that strategy was actually really nice this way.
Playing the Fed the game is basically over a bit earlier which is fine. And actually I'm really happy that it's possible to get to a point were borders are clear and you can do some research and development in peace. In botf 1 the game didn't let you really so all together.. It's all fine
I'm looking forward to the huge map on higher difficulty settings and random starting coordinates. I hope to get to see almost all minor civs there.

[Iceman]

If the civs are at war with each other, yes.
Can't recall if being Allied+ or Affiliated+ also should allow this, will have to check the code.

Actually I enjoyed the possibility so I hope it'll stay..
To be clear for unclaimed sectors we were always able to colonize a system if another empire terraformed at least one planet.

Uncolonized systems (systems that are not owned by any civ) and systems in unclaimed sectors (sectors where no civ has a claim) are two different things.
A system an only have one owner, but it can have multiple claims (if not owned) [which makes it contested].
A fleet that is terraforming an unowned system adds a claim to that system - to prevent other civs (that are not at war with them) from colonizing the system. Notice that any previous terraforming (from any civ) doesn't matter, only if the civ is *currently* terraforming is important - the claim lasts for the turn after the terraforming order is changed (because it is completed or whatever else) so that the civ can change the order to colonize and not get prevented from doing so by another civ. You can check this by the color of the sector, which should be the terraforming civ's.
Sorry for probably stating the obvious, but I'm just trying to determine if things are working as intended.

That helped often times to quickly get the system and then we would continue terraforming the remaining planets. The colonisation claim such as with the other human player did probably not matter because the AI usually tried to terraform all planets before colonisation so they didn't try to colonize at the same time.

It depends (about the AI). It will terraform enough planets to hold all the colony ship's pop, and some more room for growth (can't recall if it's double or something). If the system has a low number of planets (3 or so), it'll also terraform all of them, regardless of the previous condition, so that it doesn't have to come back to the system later to terraform 1 or 2 planets only. That's what I do

I understand that for parallel colonisation attempts there should be a claim. But as long as one tries to terraform all planets and meanwhile somebody lands the colony ship, well bad luck.. that should be fine on my opinion. It could be like that in "star trek reality".
However it should maybe effect the diplomacy more.. Didn't really see an effect on that.

The problem is when it is the first planet in the system that is being terraformed... It happened to me a few times, I was starting terraforming a system and the AI came and stole it from me - since it had priority over me (before the terraforming claim was implemented), I lost those systems.
Notice that this can still happen if the AI is at war with you - in this case, yes, bad luck You should have taken an escort.
I'll check the effects, can't recall exactly what those are.

[Iceman]

It felt like easy settings not really normal as it says in the lobby. But I played botf- like games a lot and the game would definitely be harder for a beginner.

There is no beginner level in Supremacy by design.

Though it would be easier to notice balancing issues in one on one battles which didn't happen too often.

There are a couple of ways to test battles.

1. Edit HomeSystems.xml and replace all starting ships of 2 (or more) civs with the fleet you want to test, for a given Starting Level. Works better with civs from the same quadrant. Start a Tiny map, Canon homequadrants. Make contact with a scout, declare war, then move your fleet to their homesystem.

2. In the Map Editor, with any map (new or loaded), use the key combo that adds fleets (CTL + F ?) to add the fleets you want to test in battle to say sector 0,0 of the map. Load the map, wait one turn for contact to be made (in sector 0,0 - fleets will probably be stranded), declare war, then engage.

Combat should not be too one-sided, or the AI will try to escape and the results will not be conclusive.

Playing the Fed the game is basically over a bit earlier which is fine. And actually I'm really happy that it's possible to get to a point were borders are clear and you can do some research and development in peace. In botf 1 the game didn't let you really so all together.. It's all fine

I'm looking forward to the huge map on higher difficulty settings and random starting coordinates. I hope to get to see almost all minor civs there.

If you use Random home quadrants, you probably will see almost all of them, yes (with the Many option). With Canon, the distribution is as even as possible, so since the Gamma Quadrant only has 13 different minors, the other quadrants will try to spawn the same amount more or less. So that's a limiting factor.

The difficulty settings should probably play a more pronounced role in the game, I'm still trying to determine where else it can be used - the AI doesn't cheat in Supremacy (at least not intentionally).

[Lakotavar]

... only if the civ is *currently* terraforming is important - the claim lasts for the turn after the terraforming order is changed (because it is completed or whatever else) so that the civ can change the order to colonize and not get prevented from doing so by another civ. ...

I don't mind some more detailed explanations about the game mechanics.

But still maybe it's just me but this quote seems like I should not have been able to colonize
Situation was:
One planet was already terraformed by the other civ (AI), AI was terraforming the next planet (indicated in the system overview), I arrived and immediately said "colonize system". Worked. We did that so many times that this couldn't have been very special circumstances.
But now you say the other civ should have had a claim.
So probably the claim lasts for one turn but only one turn after terraforming and not during terraforming. This confused me a bit, sorry.

[Lakotavar]

There is no beginner level in Supremacy by design.

Immediately makes me think of an in-game tutorial but I don't know the necessary effort behind it so maybe ignore this I would wonder how many people try out the game and quit early because it's rather complex.

There are a couple of ways to test battles.

1. Edit HomeSystems.xml and replace all starting ships of 2 (or more) civs with the fleet you want to test, for a given Starting Level. Works better with civs from the same quadrant. Start a Tiny map, Canon homequadrants. Make contact with a scout, declare war, then move your fleet to their homesystem.

2. In the Map Editor, with any map (new or loaded), use the key combo that adds fleets (CTL + F ?) to add the fleets you want to test in battle to say sector 0,0 of the map. Load the map, wait one turn for contact to be made (in sector 0,0 - fleets will probably be stranded), declare war, then engage.

Combat should not be too one-sided, or the AI will try to escape and the results will not be conclusive.

OK, this would be something for a an extended weekend or so. I will remember you explained it and as I sometimes say at work "I put this on my list". Naturally we rather complain if something is too difficult

The difficulty settings should probably play a more pronounced role in the game, I'm still trying to determine where else it can be used - the AI doesn't cheat in Supremacy (at least not intentionally).

And this you should please keep like it is We are like 99,9% sure that the botf 1 "AI" cheated and it was annoying as..

Would you mind to share what parts of the game are effected by the difficulty settings so far?

[Iceman]

Immediately makes me think of an in-game tutorial but I don't know the necessary effort behind it so maybe ignore this I would wonder how many people try out the game and quit early because it's rather complex.

Yes, a tutorial would be really nice!
Thanks to Misfire, we have a Map Editor which we can use to make a custom map for a tutorial. We just need the rest

OK, this would be something for a an extended weekend or so. I will remember you explained it and as I sometimes say at work "I put this on my list". Naturally we rather complain if something is too difficult

And this you should please keep like it is We are like 99,9% sure that the botf 1 "AI" cheated and it was annoying as..

Would you mind to share what parts of the game are effected by the difficulty settings so far?

No plans to change it

I'll try to make a list of what is affected by difficulty, and post it here.


I checked the code, and you're right, the fleet orders are not affected by claims. I probably only made it so for the AI when selecting colonization targets (and probably forgot to enforce for human players too, or it's in one of the ToDo lists somewhere ).
Terraforming does set a claim on the system though, at the end of turn.

BTW, for simultaneous colonization attempts, the civ with highest firepower gets to colonize the system (an indirect way to make escorts valuable).
In the case of a tie, if the system has no claims at all it will be colonized by the civ whose territory is closest to it; if it has claims, the one with a claim to the system gets to colonize it, and if both have claims the one with the highest claim value gets it. If it cannot be settled by any of this, RNG decides (pending a better decision process).

[Iceman]

2. In the Map Editor, with any map (new or loaded), use the key combo that adds fleets (CTL + F ?) to add the fleets you want to test in battle to say sector 0,0 of the map. Load the map, wait one turn for contact to be made (in sector 0,0 - fleets will probably be stranded), declare war, then engage.

This is not true, it's not in the Map Editor, it's in the CE version of the game!!
(I thought something was off when I was writing it...)

[Lakotavar]

I checked the code, and you're right, the fleet orders are not affected by claims. I probably only made it so for the AI when selecting colonization targets (and probably forgot to enforce for human players too, or it's in one of the ToDo lists somewhere ).
Terraforming does set a claim on the system though, at the end of turn.

OK, I see.. honestly it would be unfortunate if this sneaky feature would be removed. Maybe it could be a compromise to say there is also a claim for the colonization but only if the terraforming civ has an escort? Because otherwise I would just land my ship.. why not?
Of course with this "realistic" point of view I should also be able to pick a different planet in a system and terraform it. So I don't know.. just don't make it too strict please

[Iceman]

I guess we could have the AI not play nice in Hard and Impossible modes?