2025 Spring Tournament sign-up — BOTF Brawl RMPM 1.4.2

[Flocke]

RMPM would that same battle would still favor Cards but not by such a huge degree if using best command for the ram situation.

I tested with RAI 1.4.2, there is no second RAI mod, is there?
( Blame BOTF_Most_Active_2.0.4RC2 )

I'm wondering though, did you include at least one fast attack in each fleet? Did you flybly both rounds or just the second? The former changes flight path/starting distance and possibly results.

I always used flyby already the first turn and tested different fleet constellations for exact that matter, but it had no notable impact on results. If the destroyer fleet was larger, maybe it would have added some distance.

Nonetheless strafe/flyby is the counter to ram if fleets are nose to nose.

You sure? I mean yes, but just for the matter of curiosity, I just re-tested 100 Sovereign II vs. 100 Battleships II Circle vs. Ram each turn, and guess what, exact 72 Battleships survived! So losses were same!

There is no overcome to the mighty cardassian battleships I fear. All other commands and ship replacements I thought of only went worse.
By my initial thought, one scrapped Sovereign gives enough money to purchase two strike cruisers in an ideal world where you had enough systems to buy them all. That would make 2x 300 hull against the battleships. In battle however, even when all are set to ram, most of the battleships will survive even when outnumbered by 2 due to repair measures and defense I guess.

One factor I could not test however is impact of crew training. I know it has a large impact, especially to evasion maneuvers and defense, but I didn't add any option to edit crew experience to UE yet, so all were greenhorns.

[Flocke]

There is no overcome to the mighty cardassian battleships I fear.

I did test this a bit further. With about 135 Sovereign II on flyby vs 100 Battleships II I reach equal strength.
Not with different maneuvers though. But there's always also a success chance and circle didn't perform much worse.

Guess the federation really needs some further bonuses to match up the cardassians, at least for T5 games.

[Final Run]

RMPM would that same battle would still favor Cards but not by such a huge degree if using best command for the ram situation.

I tested with RAI 1.4.2, there is no second RAI mod, is there?

Let me test myself and we will compare. lol

You sure?

yeee I just make stuff up as I go... NOT.

Of course I'm sure. Did you even watch any of the videos I linked here?
50 strafing Klingon Destroyers absolutely mollywhooped 50 ramming Cardassian Destroyers. Same thing with the outnumbered Attack Cruisers using flyby on superior Battleship II's. These races are more comparable in vanilla.

[Flocke]

Of course I'm sure. Did you even watch any of the videos I linked here?

Yes I have watched them, but none of them did circle, and astonishingly that gave same results in my admittedly singular test of that flight orders.
By the circle command, ships try to maintain a specific distance, and therefore turn around when opponent ships close in with the ram tactic.
Therefore they survived a little longer, but also caused less damage despite that their firing arc is set to 360 degree.

Klingon attack cruisers II however are much more powerful with their 28 phaser emitters than the federation Sovereign. Additionally they excel in phaser accuracy and defense. And furthermore it's way less ships in total, many more light ships and you altered orders. Therefore it's not comparable conditions.

Plus, like I said, other commands only went worse in my tests.

P.S. Other than the Sovereign, the klingon attack cruisers II only have a firing arc of 120 degree. Which for sure limits their circle command alot!
If the federation agility was better than for the cardassian battleships, the sovereign might have even manged to escape the ram maneuver. But the cardassian battlehip agility is much better.

[trevtones]

Guess the federation really needs some further bonuses to match up the cardassians, at least for T5 games.

In the tourney game we had I was conquering the klingons when I met Rais cardassians. Seeing a large fleet of cardassian ships come across the galaxy that early in the game really spooked me. So I decided to make peace with the klingons instead of continuing to take their systems. This was a mistake that I immediately regretting doing as taking their systems wouldve helped my shipbuilding greatly and also in defending against the brutal cardassian intel attacks we were enduringI We signed an indefinite treaty and I couldnt break it after since Federation breaking the treaty and continuing to conquer would've ruined their morale. and this is kinda what led me to thinking about the trade routes thing since Instead of taking klingons systems I was stuck trading with them for the rest of the game which probably only yielded me a few hundred credits per turn. A single shipyard building and scrapping destroyers would've yielded much more. I think I was able to make a few demands of the klingons but I remember trying to not make them too angry at me once we had committed to being friends.

Just a thought I had cuz Im enjoying playing as the federation right now. Im not that naive I knew it was a tournament game and Rai had first pick with cardassians my logical best choice was to pick klingons on tech 5 but I just honestly never enjoyed the klingons as much as the other races. So I picked Feds and hoped for the best! And that's not a knock on klingons some people dig them I get it, I'm convinced Capn Hewer is a klingon IRL, theyre just not my cup of tea!

[Final Run]

One factor I could not test however is impact of crew training. I know it has a large impact, especially to evasion maneuvers and defense, but I didn't add any option to edit crew experience to UE yet, so all were greenhorns.

I'm curious about this as well. My hunch is that it favors Cardassians do to better hull totals (damage control making it tougher?)
I never had any reason to suspect it effected evade maneuvers yet! I hope that's true.

Yes I have watched them, but none of them did circle,

I used circle with Cardassian Destroyers later on in that one to counter Klingon Destroyers strafing, but if that's not good enough here's plenty more coming.

Guess the federation really needs some further bonuses to match up the cardassians, at least for T5 games.

lol, Is this just baiting or an honest take? Defiant are awesome paired with any fleet, and do decently alone too. In actual games we've played in that mod, the Federation win almost 50% of the time just by splitting money off to build Defiants. Circling away the sovereigns while having another fast attack group (mostly defiants and scouts for cannon fodder) is a deadly combo. I've won plenty as Federation (vs cards too) doing that, and just because you didn't see it in the tournament this year doesn't mean it didn't happen prior.

I agree maybe I need to lay out more evidence, so here again in vanilla: 50 Klingon Destroyers using charge or circle vs Cardassian ram = instant death

Klingon Destroyer Circle (loss): https://youtu.be/5hiGPQ83weM
Klingon Destroyer Charge (loss): https://youtu.be/gLJb9Cf5lIY
Klingon Destroyer Strafe or Evade (win): https://youtu.be/eWSiArouL3k

Hardly a coincidence that only few of the commands result in a victory for Klingons, right?

Moving on to commands in RMPM 1.4.2:

9 Scouts are added to each side to increase distance, but they are so weak they hardly effect the outcome

50 Dreadnought Assault vs 50 ramming Cardie BSII (losing still, but even faster): https://youtu.be/s4xv1sMJcbw
Dreadnought Flyby switch vs ramming Cardies (loss, but did considerable damage to cardassians): https://youtu.be/tYMdSK8E8Ns

To really show this though we need to switch the race to Klingons in this mod. These results are night and day and can't be accounted merely by some slight rng

50 Attack Cruiser II Assault vs 50 ramming Cardies BSII (overwhelming loss): https://youtu.be/Txf8MZRxO2A
Attack Cruiser II Flyby switch vs ramming Cardies (overwhelming win): https://youtu.be/Txf8MZRxO2A

I also tried this in vanilla merely to compare, with relevant combat patches, but the 50 Cardassian Battleships would never ram, only assault or flyby even after repeated test. I'm not sure why that is.

Anyway, I'm not trying to be jerk here or a know-it-all, I just think teaching newbies and regulars alike what actually wins battles is good for the game and the MP scene. It's shocking to me seemingly no-one yet has noticed (or not at least talked about openly) how blatantly false many of the game suggestions are.

Klingon attack cruisers II however are much more powerful with their 28 phaser emitters than the federation Sovereign. Additionally they excel in phaser accuracy and defense. And furthermore it's way less ships in total, many more light ships and you altered orders. Therefore it's not comparable conditions.

Yes, that's why the flyby actually works wonders in that case, since the ship isn't junk like the Federation one. What I was trying to imply is that we don't notice what counters what until the two fleets are comparable in strength.

Firing arcs on other ships are even worse (mostly romulans/ferengi), so it might be put them worse position long-term for just a short term gain. Though as I say this, I did use flybly followed by ram with klingon k'vorts in tournament games to deadly effect (I found it much better than assault), and we know the firing arc on that ship is awful. Maybe beam firepower is more important than arcs in this case, or maybe both are equally needed; again though, another result just not what you would expect at all.

I dont think the altered orders helped me much at all though. 65 commands ramming (and also nearly 30 fast attacks too) ramming my 50 cruisers, and they miss, and afterward just disappeared in a sea of purple cardie dust and red beams

Given the fact in an actual game people will very likely be having fast attacks supporting it is more telling.

By the circle command, ships try to maintain a specific distance, and therefore turn around when opponent ships close in with the ram tactic.

Is this what you meant?: https://youtu.be/kvF2YCj3ST0
I circled turn 1, then charged, then flyby. This allowed me to win too

I then tried this with Federation against the 50 Cardassian Battleships, adding only 5 extra Sovereign class: https://youtu.be/t5qh6qq_snI

I won the battle with 2 sovereigns remaining, even though the Cardassians finally rammed every single round this time.

Weirdly, I think the screen-extending of circle inadvertently helps beat a ram attempt at starting distance, though maybe not by design? Had the two fleet been already close together and I pulled out a circle move, I'm pretty sure I would have died to the ram there. My theory is that Ram generally counters circle at close range (much like assault does) in this kind of rock-papers-scissors

[Final Run]

Just a thought I had cuz Im enjoying playing as the federation right now. Im not that naive I knew it was a tournament game and Rai had first pick with cardassians my logical best choice was to pick klingons on tech 5

My take is this: you had a shot there-- well before the game screwed you with a medicore start position in the galaxy, anyway.

I'd be willing to play Feds again versus a good Card player in a three game set, and I'll show you what the Hoo-mans are really capable of...

[Flocke]

I've won plenty as Federation (vs cards too) doing that, and just because you didn't see it in the tournament this year doesn't mean it didn't happen prior.

Just to make things clear, trevtones did a really bad performance and your victory is well deserved!
I just got curious on how to fight that many battleships and did some testing.

Since in that game you had 100 battleships and trevtones played the Federation, it doesn't matter how many videos you upload for the Klingons or with only half the fleet setup. So I did my own record now:
https://youtu.be/IQzaMFMpZoQ

With the addition of 10 Heavy Destroyers II, 9 more battleships were destroyed. Still you would need many more ships and in a small or med map tier 5 game it takes way too many turns to research and build up a decent defiant fleet.

But BOTF always has been imbalanced and you might get lucky in just building up a much larger fleet.
For it trevtones I guess would have needed to take on the Klingons just about 100 turns earlier.

I agree maybe I need to lay out more evidence, so here again in vanilla: 50 Klingon Destroyers using charge or circle vs Cardassian ram = instant death

A very bad sample for the circle command. Klingon destroyers have a firing arc of just 80. Of course they loose, but it doesn't tell anything about the circle command tactic itself, just the bad firing arc.

Dreadnought Flyby switch vs ramming Cardies (loss, but did considerable damage to cardassians): https://youtu.be/tYMdSK8E8Ns

A good outcome actually with only 17 battleships that survived.

I also tried this in vanilla merely to compare, with relevant combat patches, but the 50 Cardassian Battleships would never ram, only assault or flyby even after repeated test. I'm not sure why that is.

In vanilla the Cardassian Battleships only have an agility of 100, which matches the other races. In RAI 1.4.2 they however have an agility of 120 and make them easily reach other ships in battle.

So while in vanilla, their ram tactic has been deadly, in your RAI mod you made them even deadlier!

Anyway, I'm not trying to be jerk here or a know-it-all, I just think teaching newbies and regulars alike what actually wins battles is good for the game and the MP scene. It's shocking to me seemingly no-one yet has noticed (or not at least talked about openly) how blatantly false many of the game suggestions are.

I liked to watch your tutorial records. You put alot great info info that!

That there is not so much posted on battle tactics I think in part is because for a long while MP players always liked to keep their secret when fighting other players. And myself I got some experience on it but never did any serious testing, counting in all the other factors like defense, firing arcs or even positioning the weapon slots and all the like.

One of those experiences I already mentioned for exmple is to factor in the crew experience. You need trained crew, it is one of the main factors in battle. I remember several SP Vanilla games, where I trained 18 Heavy Destroyers II up to legendary status and they easily took down a whole BORG cube without it even managing to fire a single shot. Not sure whether it was due to increased defense, better agility, accuracy or that they simply fired faster. But with a large fleet of well trained escorts I am sure you could take out such a massive battleship fleet with ease.

Maybe beam firepower is more important than arcs in this case, or maybe both are equally needed; again though, another result just not what you would expect at all.

Actually I am not so sure on the importance of firing arc, because the weapon slots have direction with firing arcs, too.
Which makes it kinda complicate. You actually would need to test every single ship and I know that slots on modded ship models were placed differently. Have it fixed and you possibly get complete different results.

1. Shiplist.sst +0xDC is an angular degree, converted into radians for fcos function (e.g. degrees/cos = 0/1 180/0 360/-1).
2. The calculated cosine values don't seem to be used but instead values depending on trek.exe phaser-slots.

Is this what you meant?: https://youtu.be/kvF2YCj3ST0
I circled turn 1, then charged, then flyby. This allowed me to win too

In principle yes, first turn shows very well how the Klingon cruisers turn around and fly away from the Cardasian Battleships.
If they were more agile and had a 360 degree firing arc, you probably could keep them on circle and the Battleships would never reach them.

I then tried this with Federation against the 50 Cardassian Battleships, adding only 5 extra Sovereign class: https://youtu.be/t5qh6qq_snI

Having survived with only two ships could be out of luck and needs more testing, also with larger fleets.
But give the Sovereign some more agility and I am sure the circle maneuver would add a great counter tactic to the ram meneuver.
It would also match that the Federation is known to be superior in propulsion research.

Weirdly, I think the screen-extending of circle inadvertently helps beat a ram attempt at starting distance

That's exactly what I meant when I asked whether you are sure about the circle command. It is not a rock-paper-scissors game, even though by the description it might appear like it was intended to be. Actually however there come many more factors into play. And I really don't know them all. Often enough it seems to be just random luck.

So yes for one specific mod you can find some general rules that apply most of the time, but with other stats and settings it might become different.
I still remember all the ruthless Ferengi raiders that when experienced in vanilla easily take out the largest battleship fleets just by using the evade maneuver and not being hit over several turns.

[Final Run]

With the addition of 10 Heavy Destroyers II, 9 more battleships were destroyed. Still you would need many more ships and in a small or med map tier 5 game it takes way too many turns to research and build up a decent defiant fleet.

On t5 I like to scrap HCII's to fund defiant build up (I think this is fastest and allows for time to attack/raid) then move on dreadnought II after.

I agree maybe I need to lay out more evidence, so here again in vanilla: 50 Klingon Destroyers using charge or circle vs Cardassian ram = instant death

A very bad sample for the circle command. Klingon destroyers have a firing arc of just 80. Of course they loose, but it doesn't tell anything about the circle command tactic itself, just the bad firing arc.

True but I was more concerned with the actual collision chance as opposed to weapons qualities. Flyby/Strafe seems to be the only move that outright glide right through ram like a ghost!

for example I tested strafe vs ramming 1v1 (scout I vs scout I), the battle lasted 6 rounds before torpedoes eventually killed me (so not the actual ram itself)

Circle (and evade sometimes) just seem to delay collision a turn or two, but eventually they always reach you if it's light ships. Doesn't mean it's a bad tactic as you point, but there are some limits to it seems.

In vanilla the Cardassian Battleships only have an agility of 100, which matches the other races. In RAI 1.4.2 they however have an agility of 120 and make them easily reach other ships in battle.

I was under the impression that it's tied to ship size too. IIRC battleships are 5% percent larger than they are in vanilla. Maybe not good enough, but I'm convinced at least the DN/BS situation is not as horrid as vanilla.

[trevtones]

Just to make things clear, trevtones did a really bad performance and your victory is well deserved!
I just got curious on how to fight that many battleships and did some testing.

Well I wouldnt say it was a really bad performance lol I made a couple mistakes but not much you're gonna be able to do when cardies had 70 percent of the map from the start of the game. They had 3 times as many systems and twice as much dilithium. RNG in botf can be cruel sometimes!

[Flocke]

Well I wouldnt say it was a really bad performance lol I made a couple mistakes but not much you're gonna be able to do when cardies had 70 percent of the map from the start of the game. They had 3 times as many systems and twice as much dilithium. RNG in botf can be cruel sometimes!

Bear with me, I'm out of practice and never played RMPM before.
I only reached turn 53 yet and am still in search for Qo'noS.

Hunting for Qo'noS.jpg

[trevtones]

Well I wouldnt say it was a really bad performance lol I made a couple mistakes but not much you're gonna be able to do when cardies had 70 percent of the map from the start of the game. They had 3 times as many systems and twice as much dilithium. RNG in botf can be cruel sometimes!

Bear with me, I'm out of practice and never played RMPM before.
I only reached turn 53 yet and am still in search for Qo'noS.
Hunting for Qo'noS.jpg

I learned from last game that I shouldve made some heavy cruisers instead of just going straight for dreadnaughts. Although the Dreadnaughts can easily deal with orbital batteries and take no damage from them I think heavy cruisers take damage from OBs?

Why are you hunting for Qonos? lol

[Flocke]

Why are you hunting for Qonos? lol

They membered Tama, that were affiliated to me, right after they upgraded. Even worse they took out a colony ship and transport that were about to terraform the vulcan system. Not enough, they kept bugging me to fight the romulans, that I signed peace with.

They must get pacified, just like the Cardassians. The sooner, the better!

I learned from last game that I shouldve made some heavy cruisers instead of just going straight for dreadnaughts. Although the Dreadnaughts can easily deal with orbital batteries and take no damage from them I think heavy cruisers take damage from OBs?

Yes they get damaged some little, but I barely noticed it. About one or two bars per attack, something the like.

[trevtones]

Why are you hunting for Qonos? lol

They membered Tama, that were affiliated to me, right after they upgraded. Even worse they took out a colony ship and transport that were about to terraform the vulcan system. Not enough, they kept bugging me to fight the romulans, that I signed peace with.

They must get pacified, just like the Cardassians. The sooner, the better!

Oh well by all means then happy hunting!

[Final Run]

Working and unable to play but looking fwd to watching the games later and joining in future.

P.S. Love the tourney rules! Great job.

P.P.S. This sort of YT etc publicity and community cheerleading is exactly what we have needed - count me in on discord asap.

Hey guys, the 2025 fall tournament sign-up post is now up. Please write your name down if you're down for it!

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