Winning as the Feds by diplomacy alone

[PTRACER]

Is it possible? Or do I need to destroy the other majors to win BOTF?

[Flocke]

It is possible, on domination it all depends on your allied colonized system galaxy share.
Given however you can't demand any colonized systems, you either must hurry to colonize the galaxy or support your allies to fight the war.

The real question is whether it is possible to ally all the major empires.
I believe so, but it must be real tough since the AI loves to fight wars and hates you whenever you support their enemies.

[Spocks-cuddly-tribble]

Is it possible? Or do I need to destroy the other majors to win BOTF?

Like Flocke said, in vanilla it's in fact very easy with domination victory condition (due to bugs). You and your allies (more than one possible if you get them to agree) need just 67% of the galactic population.

real tough since the AI loves to fight wars and hates you whenever you support their enemies.

Latest ECM codes improve the AI diplomacy issue i.e. the AI empires develop and behave more organic and canon. So with fixed AI empire power checks, depending on the situation, it's easier the get useful treaties with the AI (tested low tech games only).

[PTRACER]

Thanks guys So when it comes to becoming allies, does that mean having Major and Minor races as members? Or should I mostly focus my efforts on meeting/joining up with minors?

I always reject War Pacts (I'm rarely in a position ships wise to fight a war and defend my colonies), but should I agree from time to time?

I suppose I should say I have the Error Correction mod installed (but nothing else) since I thought these were just general code/bug fixes and should install it. So maybe not quite vanilla!

[Spocks-cuddly-tribble]

So when it comes to becoming allies, does that mean having Major and Minor races as members? Or should I mostly focus my efforts on meeting/joining up with minors?

Alliance is a treaty between empires (see diplomacy).

Minor races controlled by empires (no matter member or conquered) count just like pop of other own or conquerd systems.

Total population of own + alliance treaty empires. It's a percentage vs the cumulated total population controlled by all empires i.e. independent minors and/or rebel systems get ignored.

BTW in ECM the alliance percentage is corrected to 75% as told in the game manual, but single domination is easier since the dysfuncional system count is disabled (just 60% of empire pop required).

Also in ECM minor races are not that powerful vs empires than in vanilla (EL limit feature fixed), so just membering a good minor race won't cut it anymore to win a game.

I suppose I should say I have the Error Correction mod installed (but nothing else) since I thought these were just general code/bug fixes and should install it. So maybe not quite vanilla!

ECM is much harder than vanilla (most exploits/cheats and mistakenly unlocked special features fixed + better AI).

In vanilla a pro can play: large, impossible, minors, T1 vs all AIs T3 with no issues. In ECM you might have your butt handed to you....

So as noob I'd start in ECM with low difficulty level or even higher starting level vs AI.

-> use new AIO beta version! viewtopic.php?p=56455#p56455

But the lates ECM patch must be added via BoF-Patcher -> Bottom of post: viewtopic.php?p=56905#p56905

[PTRACER]

real tough since the AI loves to fight wars and hates you whenever you support their enemies.

Latest ECM codes improve the AI diplomacy issue i.e. the AI empires develop and behave more organic and canon. So with fixed AI empire power checks, depending on the situation, it's easier the get useful treaties with the AI (tested low tech games only).

I think this is what I really need from the BOTF experience. In vanilla the major race AI seem to swing from one extreme the other very quickly and their behaviour is unlike their canon counterparts.

I suppose a more general issue with the game design is that no matter who you play as, you can use money to bribe minors into your empire. As the Feds I wouldn't expect to use this tactic, but it's not like the game engine offers any alternatives.

[KrazeeXXL]

I suppose a more general issue with the game design is that no matter who you play as, you can use money to bribe minors into your empire. As the Feds I wouldn't expect to use this tactic, but it's not like the game engine offers any alternatives.
Top

I think the no-money policy isn't really well explained in ST in any way. Sure, we've the Ferengis who use it and non Fed-worlds still evolve around some kind of currencies or something of value. Feds seem to use reputation, though. I guess it's up to the player to view the arbritary "Credits" as something like that or something else entirely. From a game design standpoint, something to measure value was needed of course and I see credits there just as some placeholder. I think in no ST show credits were ever mentioned. Maybe in Star Trek online or something but that isn't canon anyway.

At least, I don't see that Credits equal money. They're something beyond that. It's kinda hard to imagine something like this, though, since our world and economies and everyday lives are so dependent on the concept of money and property for eons now.

Anyway, to come back to your OP. Definitely possible to win the game without fighting much. I did that once where I just had a little encounter with a Scout. And it even fled. That was all the combat I've seen in this one game. Just had to make sure to stay hidden for a long time and avoid the other majors, so I could build up massively. I was so far ahead and large that any of the AI didn't try to mess with me. And I just watched this game unfold like some kind of simulation in front of me. Still one of my favourite games of all the BotF games I played over the years.

[slickrcbd]

I suppose a more general issue with the game design is that no matter who you play as, you can use money to bribe minors into your empire. As the Feds I wouldn't expect to use this tactic, but it's not like the game engine offers any alternatives.
Top

I think the no-money policy isn't really well explained in ST in any way. Sure, we've the Ferengis who use it and non Fed-worlds still evolve around some kind of currencies or something of value. Feds seem to use reputation, though. I guess it's up to the player to view the arbritary "Credits" as something like that or something else entirely. From a game design standpoint, something to measure value was needed of course and I see credits there just as some placeholder. I think in no ST show credits were ever mentioned. Maybe in Star Trek online or something but that isn't canon anyway.

Credits were only mentioned in the The Original Series (TOS). The Harry Mudd episode "Mudd's Women" and in the episode "The Trouble with Tribbles". I can't think of any other mention of them, but I could be wrong as it's been a decade since I've really watched TOS even though I used to watch it every week when the reruns were airing on UPN in conjunction with a new TNG episode as a kid.

It wasn't until TNG that it was mentioned the Federation had abolished currency. The closest we can come to was in "Catspaw" when Kirk mentioned they can synthesize gemstones by the ton and had no value.

So it's entirely possible that TOS had a currency and Earth didn't fully abolish money until some time between TOS and TNG, which IIRC was an 80-year period. A lot can happen in 80 years.
Would somebody from the second world war recognize society today with women having near equal roles in the workplaces as men and full racial integration? Don't forget all the electronics in everyday life, and the use of mass media.
The changes can be even more drastic if you take somebody from 1860 and drop them in 1940 after the Progressive Movement and the New Deal.
That's just America, and I apologize for something American-centric. I could use Russia as another example with the pre-revolution Russia, the Soviet Era, and some time 5-10 years after the fall of the Soviet Union as examples of cutoff points for drastic changes.

China being another one, pre and post Revolution.

[KrazeeXXL]

Ah, interesting that it was mentioned in TOS. I feel that the vision behind TNG and TOS differ by quite a bit, though. Now, TOS was this 60s/70s show were the attractive Captain got a new woman every day/week. It had quite some vibe. I think the vision changed or got more implemented the more successful it got. The movies were definitely a step forward from the show itself in my opinion. Esp. ST IV tried to make the viewer introspect on issues of our world and show us a place were these problems were and can be overcome.

TNG was a major shift. Or at least it felt like one. Esp. regarding the original show itself. And while the movies seemed like a step forward for TOS, for me they feel the opposite for TNG.

I think the biggest and most prominent change from TOS to TNG was the older, more seasoned and reasonable Captain. Technological advancements like the replicator pretty much eliminated shortages and you can just order what you want, whenever you want. A lot of problems were solved and no need for money anymore. No one ever even thinks about money there. There's no reason. It isn't even a topic. There are more important things. The Galaxy Class itself shows were the voyage goes and what scale everything is about.

I agree, that a lot can happen in 80 years. Your comparison is apt and checks out.

But honestly, just take our Generation. We grew up with analogue and digital "stuff" and witnessed the change first hand when it comes to the digital revolution.

I think the TNG episode "The Neutral Zone" were they find the 3 people in this cryo-chamber-ship sheds some interesting light on this issue. I always liked the rather brazen Wallstreet guy who woke up just to see through the Romulans. He was out of time but quickly found a way to adapt. It's a rather interesting episode and not often talked about as far as I can tell.

[thunderchero]

firstborn - Riker has vouchers at Quark's

[slickrcbd]

I think the TNG episode "The Neutral Zone" were they find the 3 people in this cryo-chamber-ship sheds some interesting light on this issue. I always liked the rather brazen Wallstreet guy who woke up just to see through the Romulans. He was out of time but quickly found a way to adapt. It's a rather interesting episode and not often talked about as far as I can tell.

I was too young, or more like uneducated (I was in 4th grade, is uneducated the right word? I wouldn't learn about it until either 5th or 6th, with those two years blurring together because I had the same teacher and mostly the same classmates) on what the Soviet Union and Communism were to make the connection at the time that episode aired, but I'm surprised that none of those three Americans from the early '80s said anything about communism.
Since I believe that the Federation in the TNG era pretty much does sound like the ideals of communism. Maybe not the Authoritarian part, but the classless society where everybody gets equal wages because of the lack of scarcity makes it seem at first glance to be a communistic society. Also everybody supposedly working for the better good of society rather than pursuing selfish ends.

I'm not saying it is communism, but those people just woke up and are struggling to understand the new world they find themselves in and given how prominent the Soviet Union was in politics from WWII through the 1980's I can't see how they would NOT make the connection and think they were in a communistic society, possibly that the Soviet Union had taken over the world and expanded into space and evolved into the Federation. Even if we know that if anything it was evolved from Western culture from "The Omega Glory" where Kirk recognizes the U.S. Declaration of Independence (which I always found weak, the only real excuse for that was Kirk being a history buff. If it was the Bill of Rights and the U.S. Constitution that might be different as it might be studied like the Magna Carta, but I've only seen it referenced and summarized, not actually had to read it in school).

[KrazeeXXL]

I'm not saying it is communism, but those people just woke up and are struggling to understand the new world they find themselves in and given how prominent the Soviet Union was in politics from WWII through the 1980's I can't see how they would NOT make the connection and think they were in a communistic society, possibly that the Soviet Union had taken over the world and expanded into space and evolved into the Federation.

Well, nobody was speaking Russian or with a thick Russian accent asking about nuclear vessels xD

Ok, jokes aside.

That's what I love about this show: they tell a lot but they also leave many blanks that the viewers can fill in themselves. Still love the discussions about aspects like these.

I'm not a history expert, but when it comes to the Magna Carta and the Bill of Rights, the ultimate culmination which probably had the most impact was the Declaration of Independence at the end. It's what defines the US. While the Magna Carta was important of course, I'd view it more as a stepping stone.

I'd compare it to the Code Napoleon. It was huge, sure. And it let to all kinds of changes like the metric system and whatnot. But when States/Countries are formed and something truly defining happens for a people, then it'll be remembered "more". Or the countries make sure that it is held in high regard as it's kind of the glue which keeps everything together.